Crash of Comair 5191 - Part 2

[Midnight Mike]

MODERATOR NOTE: This post was split from other thread to start anew.

Getting us back on topic to the thread title...

Pilots are Pilots responsible to know where they are going and not depend on the controller to watch where they are going.

If they need extra help, they need to ask and inform the controller that they are unfamiliar with the airport

At times, a Controller may need to walk on the Cat Walk, but, from the inside of the Tower, a Controller may not be able to see every part of the airport.

NOW, when the report from the NTSB is released, more than likely, it will say Pilot Error, with reasons, & I am sure that they will have other people share responsibility.

[PhilDernerJr]

The news isn't explaining this enough to my liking....can anyone tell me exactly what taxiway construction occured and how/if it really affected anything in regards to the crash?

I also heard that the mistaken runway has a big hump in the middle, so you can't see the other end.

[Midnight Mike]

Phil

Did you see this photo?

[PhilDernerJr]

I've seen diagrams, but where exactly was the construction? In the colored areas? Did that affect their taxiiing at all?

[pgengler]

The image used by the Wikipedia article may be more helpful; red is actual path, blue is intended path, black X marks taxiway out of service.

[Nonstop2AUH]

NY Times today reports that this crew boarded and started to preflight the wrong aircraft before ramp workers pointed out the mistake.

For those of you who have been there, is this an easy error to make, or does it imply a potential level of inattention (at best) or impairment (at worst)?

[hiss srq]

If there was that much of a question as to the location of the aircraft they could have always requested progressive taxi. It is understandable confusion but that is why you check your heading upon line up before you stand em up. Aloto fthese smaller airports play with staffing how about the collision a few years ago at SRQ I lost agood freind in that one because the controllers decided to make a swap in the cab mid rush with several in the pattern etc etc.. and at that time we had our on approach control as well. Big boo boo there ATC has a part in it but we as pilots are the ones who are the final barrier when it comes to safety. The F/O BTW is not looking like he is going to make it the coma is bad from what someone told me.


On another note the CRJ probably never even made it off the ground and if it did barely because it takes about 5 grand from what i understand with a near full load to get up and off in the 100/200 as one of my good freinds flys them for air wisconsin and was explaining it as well as my observing two of them going off yesterday at SRQ. none made it off before the intersection for 14 and 4/22 which is about halfway or 4500 feet if I recall correctly.

[mirrodie]

I apologize as I have not heard much about this crash.

One question though. Wouldn't a pilot know, by looking, that the runway was too short? Or at least if it did not seem right?

[moose135]

I apologize as I have not heard much about this crash.

One question though. Wouldn't a pilot know, by looking, that the runway was too short? Or at least if it did not seem right?

We'll ignore the fact that you came late to the party and just be greatful you showed up at all :D

Given the circumstances, they probably couldn't tell the runway length. It was still dark, and apparently (as per the NOTAM) was unlit, so they really had no way of knowing how far into the darkness the runway extended. Also, I've seen reports that there is a "hump" mid-way down it's length, so even in daylight you can't really see the departure end when lined up for takeoff.

[NIKV69]

I am sorry but this is pilot error and nothing more. The staffing of the tower means nothing. You are supposed to have a chart of the airport and now what runway is what. Lights and all this other stuff is a smokescreen.

[Derf]

I am sorry but this is pilot error and nothing more. The staffing of the tower means nothing. You are supposed to have a chart of the airport and now what runway is what. Lights and all this other stuff is a smokescreen.

I concur

[hiss srq]

I am sorry but this is pilot error and nothing more. The staffing of the tower means nothing. You are supposed to have a chart of the airport and now what runway is what. Lights and all this other stuff is a smokescreen.

Though for the majority of the issue the crew is responsable for the final level of safety of operation there is still a level of responsability on the man in the cab. Otherwise why in the heck do we have ATC? They are supposed to assist us guide us and advise us on things like this. The crew never asked for a progressive taxi from ATC as far as I know and it is understandable, they thought they had it figured out but it still falls on the controller to some extent whether it be 10% 15% 20% or 100% ATC in an incident like this one has a level of responsibility. And for lights etc......... They mean something, perhaps they would have made it had those lights been on. It would have given a much better judgement of length even if they were already over the hump they might have had the time to stomp on the brakes.

[K9DEP]

I am sorry but this is pilot error and nothing more. The staffing of the tower means nothing. You are supposed to have a chart of the airport and now what runway is what. Lights and all this other stuff is a smokescreen.

Though for the majority of the issue the crew is responsable for the final level of safety of operation there is still a level of responsability on the man in the cab. Otherwise why in the heck do we have ATC? They are supposed to assist us guide us and advise us on things like this. The crew never asked for a progressive taxi from ATC as far as I know and it is understandable, they thought they had it figured out but it still falls on the controller to some extent whether it be 10% 15% 20% or 100% ATC in an incident like this one has a level of responsibility. And for

Well if you believe that then you shouldn't ever fly out of KFRG the only time the controllers there look outside "from their books and magazines or weekend party pics" is when they give taxi instructions. Nowadays some airport controllers have programs that would show their field on a computer screen and on the screen they could see every aircraft that they want (helped in part by the planes transponder), I know Kennedy has it I'm not sure about La Guardia.

Also whenever you are listening to ATC (for KFRG) and you hear the controller say to an arriving aircraft "report inner shore line"(when arriving from the south) or report "Northport Stacks/ Walt Whitman Mall(arriving from the North)" for a second there the controller looked up at the screen to find the incoming aircraft nut after giving instructions for you to "report" back to them they can go back to conversing with another controller, or reading.

It's even worse for controllers in IFR conditions they don't do anything unless it's been asked for or requested. They give the instructions and the pilot follows (correctly or incorrectly).

By the way the controllers "main purpose" in life is to provide the proper spacing between aircraft, the rest is left up to the pilot. :lol:

[hiss srq]

I was not intending to insult ATC their duties etc etc.. but I personally beleive that a percentage lies on LEX's ATC as well. On another note that technology is awesome, I think most airports even some of the smaller ones do need that stuff.

[Mateo]

ATC keeps the planes apart. It's the pilot's responsibility to tell a 2 apart from a 6. I don't know why we're getting all of these canards in the news about one controller vs. two, or how much sleep the ATC had the night before.