Lighters to be Allowed on Airliners Again

**emshighway** · 07-22-2007, 07:38 PM

Again less than an ounce of lighter fluid compared to eight or more ounces.

There are several departments working different angles. Throwing out technologies without a lot of testing can be as damaging. One case is the ETPs (puffers). They were being tested but congressmen pushed to have them deployed (at their local airports of course). The initial screen time was 12-17 seconds. As time went on the times increased to 27 seconds. One person through a lane every 30 seconds becomes a nightmare. The deployment was stopped and the machines have to show consistent performance before deployment will ever continue.

The backscatter machine is great except for one little drawback :shock: . The system has been worked and worked and the present view has just an outline and is very vague except for any organics (weapons, metals, masses). But the stigma stays with the system so it is hard to deploy.

Equipment is getting smarter and smaller. Look at computers and cell phones. The progression wasn't overnight. It has taken about 20 years to get where we are now with those technologies. I had one of the first Motorola flip phones and it was huge. My first PC was $3000 now I am typing on a Ultra-Mobile PC.

Now onto the knee jerk reactions. So a threat is identified and terrorists are known to try multiple hits so what do you do? Wait and see if they will hit or put something in place to try to stop it? Someone breaks into your house through a window in the back of your house. Do you repair the window, take steps to protect that window but don't do anything to the front windows? Sometimes these are hard choices which will look stupid but do you do nothing and take the chance. How many congressmen and the media would be calling for someones head on a platter if something did happen. It is a no win situation.

**USAF Pilot 07** · 07-22-2007, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by emshighway

OK, so the majority of people flying are trustworthy. So should we take a chance and allow all or just some bottles when there is the possibility there may be something that can take a plane down.

We should just start profiling.... :shock:

**emshighway** · 07-22-2007, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by USAF Pilot 07

Originally Posted by emshighway

OK, so the majority of people flying are trustworthy. So should we take a chance and allow all or just some bottles when there is the possibility there may be something that can take a plane down.

We should just start profiling.... :shock:

It was discussed at the beginning of the liquids ban but then the lawyers got involved.

**emshighway** · 07-22-2007, 09:10 PM

Hey, it has taken hundreds of years for the government to be as screwed up as it is today. The TSA is only five years old, we are just trying to catch up!!!

**T-Bird76** · 07-22-2007, 09:15 PM

Before I go further everyone please understand that I am posting my own views and am not "officially" representing any government agency here. I posted a comment about cost and TBird jumped on it as official.

I simply responded to you're post. EMS regardless of what you post in reference to security you work for the TSA and therefore what you say maybe perceived as information you've obtained through work. In you’re comments you did say "we" which I think logically would be interrupted as the TSA, you weren't speaking from opinion but as an agent for the TSA, therefore my argument and inquiry are valid for discussion. The change in policy was perceived as cost over security given the fact a lighter was used to try to bring down that American flight. I think its fair for someone to ask “before it was dangerous and now its not?” Do you see the mix message here? Same with liquids, one-day liquids weren’t a threat the next they were. Whoever is speaking and reasoning these decisions to the public need to do a better job.

EMS you need to stop taking these arguments so personal. I have NEVER once said "EMS you're the problem, you suck, you're unprofessional." or anything to that nature. You seem to have allot of pride in you're work and I think that's great, its a serious job that sadly I don't see very many TSA agents in the New York area take seriously. Regardless if you think I'm a frequent flyer elite snob I do fly more then anyone on this site (except for Art at ISP) for business and I've simply been disappointed with some of my observations of the TSA. I think we can do allot better then what we have out there now.

Phil you're comment as to you simply hear us attacking and making complaints and not doing anything about it, I've been part of a number of passenger survey’s by the airlines, airports, and the TSA, so I have made suggestions. You might disagree but being my job is to travel so much, the airlines, airports, and the various gov't agencies that tax my ticket and benefit from the revenue I bring them...I have every right to point out faults that I see and so does anyone who faces an increased risk of a security failure because they travel so much for their livelihood. Before stating that you only hear complaints you should ask "what have you done to help make it better." I very often pointed out things that I've seen to TSA and local police while traveling. So to you’re point I have suggested change.

I know there's no simple answer to keeping people safe in the sky and the fact is anyone who flies on a regular basis have to resign themselves to the threat something might happen. What I ask and I've mentioned it in a number of my posts regarding the TSA is that consistent policy and procedure be followed with a professional sense of urgency. That in no way is attacking anyone or complaining its simply asking a gov't agency that is funded by tax dollars to do their job.

**emshighway** · 07-22-2007, 09:56 PM

People can make personal comments about the TSA but when someone posts an answer they are taking arguments personally? This is such bull. Just like flyertalk all people want to hear is their side and people agreeing with their side. Have a different opinion then we are taking things personally.

With the amount of airports and personnel absolute consistency is difficult. Sorry, the threats aren't consistent.

Let's take the NYPD as an example or any large agency. With around 38,000 officers you will not get absolute consistency. They go by the Patrol Guide. Some of you have had different experiences with the Police while spotting. These officers do the best they can.

People are doing their jobs. Did you get past your own views and see that I wrote that I don't necessary agree with the policies?

**PhilDernerJr** · 07-22-2007, 10:14 PM

Tommy,

Again, it's easy to find faults in the security process, but no one acknowledges that there are few, better solutions. As I said, I agree some of what's being done might not be the best, but I can't think of anythign better. Can you think of anything better? You say you have suggestions....I'm all ears.

**emshighway** · 07-22-2007, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Phil D.

You say you have suggestions....I'm all ears.

Yes, let's here? You have someone who can send your ideas up the chain. Let's see what you got.

**T-Bird76** · 07-22-2007, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by emshighway

People can make personal comments about the TSA but when someone posts an answer they are taking arguments personally? This is such bull. Just like flyertalk all people want to hear is their side and people agreeing with their side. Have a different opinion then we are taking things personally.

With the amount of airports and personnel absolute consistency is difficult. Sorry, the threats aren't consistent.

Let's take the NYPD as an example or any large agency. With around 38,000 officers you will not get absolute consistency. They go by the Patrol Guide. Some of you have had different experiences with the Police while spotting. These officers do the best they can.

People are doing their jobs. Did you get past your own views and see that I wrote that I don't necessary agree with the policies?

I've never said you have to agree with me and I've read everything you've posted and I see you don't agree with some of the policies. Again I'm not arguing with you're point of view or attacking it, I was simply posing a question for discussion based on the information you posted. Each of us are going to have our own opinions, I base my opinion on the frequent I do. My observation is pretty objective as well; I pretty much look at each event for what it is. When I hear one person talk about whom they banged last night when they are manning an X-ray device its clear to me they shouldn’t be there. Also in no way are the posts in this thread anything like what is posted at Flyertalk, I don't think its fair to even compare. I’ve found flyer talk to be filled with non-business travelers who simply try to work the system for whatever gains they can get and if it doesn’t work for them it simply sucks in their eyes.

I'm fully aware not every airport is going to act the same way but some level of consistency is achievable in any organization. For a min look at if from my perspective. I travel 160,000 miles a year and for a month or two things are done one way, you go through the procedure and you're like ok this is cool and then BAM something changes and you are chastised for not following direction. Well how the hell do I know you're changing what was done a week ago, yes I know its to deter terrorists from finding holes but some professionalism would be nice. The TSA is in a strange situation, they're number one job is security but they are also in a customer service position as well.

**USAF Pilot 07** · 07-22-2007, 10:39 PM

I fly maybe on average one RT a month and I've dealt with some awesome, totally professional TSA agents, and I've dealt with some clueless agents on a powertrip for no reason, or who were too busy joking with each other than paying attention to their jobs. (In one case, my friend got a bottle of Gatorade through security, where the agents seemed to care less about their job and were too busy "smoking and joking" (haha I can't believe I just said that)). This, along with countless stories about similar observations by frequent travelers, leads me to believe that behavior like this, both positive and negative, happens all the time

Is there any type of CCRB or IAB division of the TSA? While I'm not such a fan of these agencies in many cases with the NYPD, the NYPD is a whole lot more of a subjective agency than the TSA is, and I think an oversight agency or a investigative branch of the TSA might do wonders to catch screeners slacking on the job or not performing in a professional manner.

Also, let me say that I don't fault TSA agents for the policies put in place by the "higher-ups" but I do blame the ones that slack on the job, treat the job as "just another gig to pay the bills", or who don't enforce the policies in a professional manner.

We all saw how four airplanes caused thousands of deaths, billions if not trillions of dollars in damage, cleanup and settlements, and how it propelled us into two wars causing thousands of more casualties, costing us billions of more dollars, creating a large political rift on the domestic front and causing a negative image around the world of the United States and Americans.

Airport security is a very serious matter, and we need people who understand this, and who are willing to accept personal responsibility for their job.

I believe this means either raising the requirements for the job, or having more oversight on the day-to-day operations of the TSA by an independent organization or the like....

**emshighway** · 07-22-2007, 11:17 PM

There is an Internal Affairs group but they are small with only a few for a region. Local Transportation Security Inspectors do tests on a daily basis.

While the pay and benefits have gotten better than pre 9/11 you still get what you pay for.

Consistency is a pet peeve of mine but with the crystal palace changing the game plan it is had to get 45,000 people on the same page.

**T-Bird76** · 07-22-2007, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Phil D.

Tommy,

Again, it's easy to find faults in the security process, but no one acknowledges that there are few, better solutions. As I said, I agree some of what's being done might not be the best, but I can't think of anythign better. Can you think of anything better? You say you have suggestions....I'm all ears.

I strongly believe the system should be re privatized or put in the hands of the airport or owner of the airport with strong regulatory control over the security of the airport. I believe very strongly that a for profit organization has a greater stake in identifying risks if they're profit is at stake. I also don’t believe that counter argument that is was private before 9/11 is valid. Its easy to assume if we take it private again the same thing will happen, the same thing can happen now. I just believe that when a company’s profit is at risk they are going ensure the regulations are meet.

Put someone in charge...port security is handled by god knows how many agencies right now. If you're not going to reprivatized airport security then put one agency in charge. If you ask the security Director at ISP who's in charge of ISP's security you'll get a million different answers, TSA is in charge of one part, Islip town is in charge of another, and Suffolk Police is in charge of another part. Put one agency in charge of the entire operation and have the others report into it. I reported in Sacramento to the TSA that a CSR at the WN ticket desk wasn't checking id, he told me that's not their area of control that I have to find a Sacramento Police officer. This goes to show that if one part of the pie isn’t accountable for another things slip through the cracks. One controlling agency should oversee the security of the entire port of entry and exit.

The nationwide roll out of an express lane for business travelers needs to be sped up, why no one uses it now is simply because not enough airports have it. I'm not even sure who's in charge of it? Is it a private company? This rollout should be in the hands of the TSA if it isn't already.

This next point sort of goes into the last point, to speed up screening all Gov't issued IDs need a smart chip to help better identify the traveler. A national ID is needed.

JFK, LAX, MKE, RDU, and TUL seem to have different standards for the size of the zip lock bag you can take through the checkpoint, why is this? This goes back to consistency, every airport should be following the same rules.

More supervisory visibility, there should someone at the checkpoints who you can easily be identifed as a supervisor. The white shirts all look the same and I don't know how to tell a supervisor from a regular agent. Managerial presence goes a long way in the eye of the consumer to promote the sense of accountability and professionalism. If someone who wants to do something sees someone of authority ensuring their people are doing their jobs they might thing twice. Even if its for show, the display of a leader is a powerful statement

Profiling, we need to start profiling plain and simple. The woman in the wheel chair who's almost blind and in adult diapers isn't going to hijack a 747. Why waste the time of two TSA agents to search her when Faham who's in his early 20s looking around like he's up to something goes on through? More random secondary screening of people meeting the profile of a terrorist should be done.

Screening cargo. Why is this such a hard thing to do? Is it that we'll slow down its movement from point A to point B? When I was at SEA three weeks ago getting a tour of Alaska's operations I asked them "do you screen cargo?" I got a look and they moved on to the next subject.

**hiss srq** · 07-22-2007, 11:29 PM

Tommy, I agree and I disagree. I agree that there needs to be more done here to standardize and I like the idea of privatization but if privatized make sure that the person speaks english and has a competnecy of someone to keep us safe. In the past the "security" was done by a guy who had just hopped off of an AA A-300 from the DR and spoke enough english to aks for id and boarding pass. Unacceptable.

We need to raise the pay on the screeners, put them through an indepth competency test, and than train them not only to identify threats but to address them as well.

As far as screening of cargo etc... I agree half and half. Coming from a family where my dad well stepdad is the president of a large freigh forwarding company and my mom the vp of ocean freight and I occasionally dabbleing I know the logistics involved there and to touch and screen every peice of ocean, air, rail and road freight is just about impossible. The other risk people do not take into account and overlook as well is UPS and FedEx. You put something in a package and it is on the right flight you have yourself an issue. Majority of FDX and UPS stuff goes unscreened. Some things to think about.

**T-Bird76** · 07-22-2007, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by hiss srq

Tommy, I agree and I disagree. I agree that there needs to be more done here to standardize and I like the idea of privatization but if privatized make sure that the person speaks english and has a competnecy of someone to keep us safe. In the past the "security" was done by a guy who had just hopped off of an AA A-300 from the DR and spoke enough english to aks for id and boarding pass. Unacceptable.

We need to raise the pay on the screeners, put them through an indepth competency test, and than train them not only to identify threats but to address them as well.

Ryan I think that's a give in...I also think that example can exist today anywhere in our society. As for training I know they do go through a variety of tests and classes. I do have to ask EMS what kind of soft skills or customer service training do you're people go through? This itself could be a key reason for some of examples we bring up.

**emshighway** · 07-22-2007, 11:56 PM