Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

[Matt Molnar]

Devil's advocate: maybe an outside source caused them to fall asleep...i.e. fumes from the lav, elevated carbon monoxide levels, or below normal oxygen levels.

[NIKV69]

MSNBC reports it is an old model CVR only last 30 min of flight is recorded so it will only reveal the part of the flight after they discovered their error.

[PhilDernerJr]

The CVR was probably first recorded by the airline before handing it in to the investigators.

[moose135]

Devil's advocate: maybe an outside source caused them to fall asleep...i.e. fumes from the lav, elevated carbon monoxide levels, or below normal oxygen levels.

And those fumes caused them to think they had a heated discussion? Maybe somebody pumped some hallucinogens into the cockpit? :shock:

The CVR was probably first recorded by the airline before handing it in to the investigators.

I would be very surprised if that happened. I assume these units are sealed to detect tampering, I don't think DL would want to open that can of worms!

[PhilDernerJr]

I could be wrong, but I thought the CVR was actually airline property. The CVR can be used for the airline to do their own investigations when behavioral issues arise or whatever they feel. Argument with ATC? Pull the CVR. Sexual harassment with an F/A? Pull the CVR.

[Matt Molnar]

Devil's advocate: maybe an outside source caused them to fall asleep...i.e. fumes from the lav, elevated carbon monoxide levels, or below normal oxygen levels.

And those fumes caused them to think they had a heated discussion? Maybe somebody pumped some hallucinogens into the cockpit? :shock:

Not super likely, but definitely possible.

A jetBlue f/a friend of mine told me a story a few years ago (maybe I've posted it here before)...On a redeye to JFK, the smoke alarm for the front lav went off a couple of times, but for whatever reason (it was dark, etc) the person made it back to their seat before the crew could determine who had caused it and they didn't want to make a fuss while everyone was sleeping. After they get to the gate and clear everyone out, a passenger asks to get back on the plane to retrieve something from the forward lav. Of course they don't let him do that, but they offer to get it for him. He's very insistent that he get it himself, which of course raises the crew's suspicion so they go inspect. In the garbage bin they find a crack pipe fashioned out of a Coke can...apparently the guy got scared and tossed it when the smoke alarm went off.

On the A320 (maybe other types as well) the ventilation for the forward lav is connected to the vents in the cockpit, so they decide to drug test the pilots just in case. Sure enough, they tested positive for crack and weren't allowed to fly for about a week.

[hiss srq]

That JetBlue story is actually fact too. I have heard it from a few sources. And yes, on the Airbus, the forward lav's outflow is into the cockpit.

[USAF Pilot 07]

I could be wrong, but I thought the CVR was actually airline property. The CVR can be used for the airline to do their own investigations when behavioral issues arise or whatever they feel. Argument with ATC? Pull the CVR. Sexual harassment with an F/A? Pull the CVR.

It may be, but I'd think once the FAA or feds get involved the airline loses it's "rights" to the CVR. They can probably request a copy from the FAA or NTSB after the data is extracted by them (before its released to the public) so that they can start their own investigation. I would imagine a FAA "representative" or officer was there to meet the plane when it pulled into the gate to make sure no funny business was being pulled.

I mean maybe the airlines could refuse to give it to the FAA, but then the FAA would probably just de-certify the airline and ground their whole operation.

When it comes to disputes with ATC, I think the tapes are usually marked (either requested by the pilots or done by ATC).

In my jet the CVR has several different channels which record inter-aircraft communication and communication between ATC and the aircraft. The whole unit starts recording once the parking brake is released so you can't control which channel is recording or anything like that.

[hiss srq]

It is engaged based on a sqwat switch in the parking brakes system. Similarly to the wat ACARS engages.

[coachrowsey]

I find this so hard to believe on a number of levels--such as how such an automated aircraft can do this--if they had programmed the STAR properly, it would call for altitude changes, and send an alarm at some point--if they were sleeping it would be a DEEP sleep....

I am still shaking my head in disbelief.

Wouldn't we all love to know what really happened

[USAF Pilot 07]

I find this so hard to believe on a number of levels--such as how such an automated aircraft can do this--if they had programmed the STAR properly, it would call for altitude changes, and send an alarm at some point--if they were sleeping it would be a DEEP sleep....

Even with a STAR with all altitude restrictions loaded in the box, the indication that the aircraft was at the TOD may only be a flashing symbol on the EHSI or EADI (if that) which would require their eyes be open, lol. Since they were at cruise their cruising altitude was probably captured coupled with their FMS NAV, so the autopilot would not automatically descend at the TOD (but it would continue to fly the lateral route on the FP).

Most STARS end with "expect radar vectors", so in the FMS flightplan you will load the STAR and the expected runway, but there will be a discontinuity between the last point on the STAR and a point on the approach. Before you reach the last point on the STAR you will usually get radar vectors off of the STAR to final, during which you can switch over the NAV sources on your EHSI to the localizer freq and inbound course of the arrival being flown and/or update the box to go direct to a point (usually the FAF) on the approach.

In this case, once they reached the final approach on the STAR their FMS sequenced to the discontinuity and had nowhere to fly so it maintained their current heading, and since no one had physically forced the aircraft to descend they were still at cruise altitude.

I believe some airlines have a policy in which the F/A are required to check-in up front every so often, but maybe DL/NWA doesn't, it wasn't done (busy cabin) or maybe eventually it was the F/As who woke up the pilots. If they had a ground speed of 600NM/HR it would mean they only overflew the airport by 15 minutes, and assuming they would have started their descent 150 miles from the airport, another 15 minutes from when they should have started that (30 minutes total).

The only aural warnings they may have had would be from ATC and who knows how loud they had their radios turned up. Both pilots were probably pretty sound asleep though...

[Matt Molnar]

As widely expected, the FAA just announced they have revoked the licenses of both pilots. They have 10 days to appeal.

[Big Tim #70]

As widely expected, the FAA just announced they have revoked the licenses of both pilots. They have 10 days to appeal.

Would they revoke their commercial rating or their pilots license all together?

[moose135]

Would they revoke their commercial rating or their pilots license all together?

Probably be their license all together.