Pilot/controller argue over which runway to land on at JFK

[eric8669]

Just heard this on the news.

According to the story JFK was landing 22's, but this pilot insisted to land 31R. Pilot ended up declaring an emergency and landed 31R.

Not sure when this happened,

anybody else here about this?

Edit
found this post on airliners about it
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/4801648/

Audio



[Mod edit: Added YouTube version of audio. -Matt]

[Zee71]

From what I understand the crosswinds were an issue. Maybe the pilot needs more training.

[USAF Pilot 07]

From what I understand the crosswinds were an issue. Maybe the pilot needs more training.

Well the pilots were both "heavy" aircraft pilots at a major legacy carrier, so I would imagine they probably had over 20,000 hours combined (probably more) and were probably pretty proficient in their jobs and crosswind landings.

Who knows what the circumstances were leading to the declaration of the emergency but it sure seems like as soon as the controller comes up with the 35 knot wind gust 90 degrees off the runway they declare it. I'm guessing this wind component exceeded their tech order or company limit for landing and they would have been forced to go-around and shoot a different approach.

There could be other factors unknown to us on why they decided to declare (fuel issues, issues with pax etc.. etc..) instead of going around. Remember the pilot's primary focus is on flying the aircraft and if time/conditions permit shooting off radio calls. They aren't required to state the nature of their emergency - once the golden word "emergency" is said, the controller should be doing all he can to accommodate that aircraft. Once on the ground the pilot then has to explain the emergency and justify calling it.

Maybe these pilots are veteran JFK regulars and are fed up with constantly shooting approaches at their crosswind limits; or maybe they've been forced to go around a few times because of this issue. Not that I'm so sure that justifies declaring an emergency.

I like the Delta pilot who comes on about 2/3 of the way through the recording and says "whoa, calm down over there.. ok clear to land".

[hiss srq]

Intresting recording indeed. Sounds like it could have been a few things... The first transmission was about a localizer issue which Cactus semi verifyed by stating there was no ILS. Was the crew in IMC on the approach to 22L?? The crosswind arguement is a prettiy viable one too...... Sounds like a company specific policy maybe as far in as the crosswind component goes. But than once the PM got runway headding from the local controller his reply about the emergency sounded pretty stressed or frustrated.... Maybe there was an emergency? Perhaps a medical on board? If it was a fuel issue I would think that they would have declared fuel mins though a little furthur out with the approach controller or at least with the local controller? All speculation but the various things I picked up from listening to the recording.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Was the crew in IMC on the approach to 22L??

Had to be VMC if they were able to circle to 31. If they were IMC and lost course guidance there's no way they should have continued on the approach. It was pretty sunny all day yesterday as well.

If it was a fuel issue I would think that they would have declared fuel mins though a little furthur out with the approach controller or at least with the local controller? All speculation but the various things I picked up from listening to the recording.

I thought about this too, but I vaguely recall reading a while ago about issues dealing with NY Approach and planes calling min fuel. Something to the likes of that it had become so common that unless you were declaring an emergency they wouldn't give you any special consideration or may even vector you to a different field. Obviously this doesn't negate their responsibility to call min fuel when they knew they were going to hit it, but again these are experienced guys who probably a lot of experience in this area and maybe felt more comfortable not doing so...

[Ari707]

ABC 7 had it on the 11 o'clock news last night. http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?secti ... id=7425425

[njgtr82]

Come on guys, we all know ATC is always right and pilots are always wrong!

[NLovis]

My take on this if you listen in at 8:24 on it sounded like he thretened ATC with that emergency call. As soon as ATc said he will pass it on he declared emergency. To me it seems like he wanted that runway and he didnt care what anybody else had to say. Seems to me like this pilot needs to get stripped.

[PhilDernerJr]

You folks hear the Iran 707 on that clip? MRJ002 at 4:20.

[NIKV69]

I thought I heard him tell this pilot there was arriving traffic on 31R while he was on final to 22? Was the config using both runways for arrivals? I think the pilot was a little out of line. He should have continued to the approach. If his emergency was he just didn't want to land in a crosswind he has some explaining to do I mean give me a break with that thinking he could never fly into LAS.

[T-Bird76]

My take on this if you listen in at 8:24 on it sounded like he thretened ATC with that emergency call. As soon as ATc said he will pass it on he declared emergency. To me it seems like he wanted that runway and he didnt care what anybody else had to say. Seems to me like this pilot needs to get stripped.

I don't think inexperienced speculation is in order or even warrants posting to the degree you place full blame on the pilot simply being impaitent, at least that's my take. An American Airlines pilot flying a 767-200 is one of AA's most experienced pilots with years of training under their belts and certainly knows what they are doing. You're conclusion that he needs to be "stripped" is without merit since NONE of the facts are in yet.

[Matt Molnar]

In the first transmission the pilot sounds drunk, distressed, or like he has to make a doody. Just sayin'.

[threeholerglory]

NLovis wrote:
My take on this if you listen in at 8:24 on it sounded like he thretened ATC with that emergency call. As soon as ATc said he will pass it on he declared emergency. To me it seems like he wanted that runway and he didnt care what anybody else had to say. Seems to me like this pilot needs to get stripped.

I don't think inexperienced speculation is in order or even warrants posting to the degree you place full blame on the pilot simply being impaitent, at least that's my take. An American Airlines pilot flying a 767-200 is one of AA's most experienced pilots with years of training under their belts and certainly knows what they are doing. You're conclusion that he needs to be "stripped" is without merit since NONE of the facts are in yet

Agreed. With no experience and a lack of facts (other than the lack of experience), speculation is entirely unnecessary.

[NLovis]

NLovis wrote:
My take on this if you listen in at 8:24 on it sounded like he thretened ATC with that emergency call. As soon as ATc said he will pass it on he declared emergency. To me it seems like he wanted that runway and he didnt care what anybody else had to say. Seems to me like this pilot needs to get stripped.

[quote:2juyo5pm]I don't think inexperienced speculation is in order or even warrants posting to the degree you place full blame on the pilot simply being impaitent, at least that's my take. An American Airlines pilot flying a 767-200 is one of AA's most experienced pilots with years of training under their belts and certainly knows what they are doing. You're conclusion that he needs to be "stripped" is without merit since NONE of the facts are in yet

Agreed. With no experience and a lack of facts (other than the lack of experience), speculation is entirely unnecessary.[/quote:2juyo5pm]
I'm allowed to say my thoughts. Just cause you might not like what I say doesnt mean I cant speak.

[USAF Pilot 07]

I'm allowed to say my thoughts. Just cause you might not like what I say doesnt mean I cant speak.

Who's saying you can't speak? If you give an opinion you gotta be ready to deal with people replying, commenting or disagreeing with it.