Airbus Threatens To Scrap A400M

**Midnight Mike** · 01-10-2010, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by hiss srq

I agree with you. Airbus is all about the pride on the 380 product. EK wont ever fly 50. Maybe 20 tops if they even keep them around. Dubai is hurting VERY badly right now and the markets are drying up there. Honestly, the 717 could have even 5 years earlier been a sure fire success. It would probably have sold VERY well too in the last decade as well but Boeing didnt want to detract from the 737-600 sales. In fact though it was the biggest mistake they could have made. The 736 is very overweight for an airplane of it's size. The Canadian's can fly it and make a buck because they use it for charter ops. In scheduled service the airplane is inefficent. The 717 on the other hand is very versatile in how it can be configured seating wise and though its a douglas twin jet it is very advanced. It was a shame that they cut the nose off that product. Allegiant I think in its current form might have been a prime customer not for the fact that they are a douglas jet carrier but because it would fit their mission plan very well and has supurb performance from what I know.

BTW thanks. That song is my theme song so to speak. Love it.

Allegiant looked at the 717, not enough seats for their liking

The 717 had other problems such as timing, both Boeing & Airbus were building families of aircraft with different ranges & of course, McDonnel Douglas was on the tailend of the RJ boom, the 717 was not classified as a RJ jet, and several of the 717 customers went out of business.

**Mayi757** · 01-11-2010, 01:01 AM

Yep, unfortunately the 717 was available a little too late. By the time it entered service, airlines no longer wanted a "DC-9 replacement". Instead, RJs and the A319 killed it. The latter is of similar size but with much more range. To be successful in the 2000s the 717 needed to have more range or be slightly smaller/or both. MDD wasn't doing that good financially and decided to modify an existing fuselage/wings like they did with the MD-11. With the supply of money Airbus has at their disposition, surely MDD could have developed an all-new RJ or A319 competitor.

Wonder if the A400M could do as a freighter, like a civilian C-130 variant. The C-17 was offered to civilian operators, but no orders.

**hiss srq** · 01-11-2010, 01:10 AM

I think at one point ElAl was looking very hard at C17's but it would have probably made it very hard to disguise those weapons shipments from the states me thinks.

**hiss srq** · 01-11-2010, 01:17 AM

Mike, I don't recall the entire order sheet for the 717 though I assume one of the carriers you mean is TWA. I am still suprised AA didnt keep the 717 orders TWA had on the books. It was a shoe in for a F100 replacement. Now there is a HUGE capacity gap in their fleet between the CRJ-700 at Eagle and the 737-800's. It might have ment less 50 seat flying too. I know everyone wants frequency but no one wants to pay the value of the trip so 50 seaters are a waste of money. So instead of Eagle flying 4 or 6 jungle jets a day from LGA to bumblefudge USA they could fly 2 or 3 717's but than again I am not in their fleet planning department or any other airlines for that matter so it is all arm chair quarterbacking.

**Midnight Mike** · 01-11-2010, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by hiss srq

Mike, I don't recall the entire order sheet for the 717 though I assume one of the carriers you mean is TWA. I am still suprised AA didnt keep the 717 orders TWA had on the books. It was a shoe in for a F100 replacement. Now there is a HUGE capacity gap in their fleet between the CRJ-700 at Eagle and the 737-800's. It might have ment less 50 seat flying too. I know everyone wants frequency but no one wants to pay the value of the trip so 50 seaters are a waste of money. So instead of Eagle flying 4 or 6 jungle jets a day from LGA to bumblefudge USA they could fly 2 or 3 717's but than again I am not in their fleet planning department or any other airlines for that matter so it is all arm chair quarterbacking.

TWA, Vuleamex, Hartland were some other customers that cancelled 717 orders.....

**hiss srq** · 01-11-2010, 05:44 PM

Hartland.......... wasnt that another Bill Diffenderffer project?

**T-Bird76** · 01-11-2010, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by hiss srq

Mike, I don't recall the entire order sheet for the 717 though I assume one of the carriers you mean is TWA. I am still suprised AA didnt keep the 717 orders TWA had on the books. It was a shoe in for a F100 replacement. Now there is a HUGE capacity gap in their fleet between the CRJ-700 at Eagle and the 737-800's. It might have ment less 50 seat flying too. I know everyone wants frequency but no one wants to pay the value of the trip so 50 seaters are a waste of money. So instead of Eagle flying 4 or 6 jungle jets a day from LGA to bumblefudge USA they could fly 2 or 3 717's but than again I am not in their fleet planning department or any other airlines for that matter so it is all arm chair quarterbacking.

TWA's lease payments and terms were equivelent of someone with a credit score of -450. AA couldn't get a deal from Boeing so they dumped them...

Problem with the 717 was it had an old wing design, no family of products and the fact TWA went bust. When TWA was purchased by AA and AA didn't want the 717s it put BRAND new product on the market for second hand prices. What motivation did AirTran and Bangkok Air have to go and order more product from the factory. It really was a series of things that made a great plane become a total market failure.

**Mayi757** · 01-14-2010, 07:29 AM

Problem with the 717 was it had an old wing design, no family of products and the fact TWA went bust

The MD-90.

If they were counting on VuelaMex (which never got off the ground) to get orders... By the time Heartland aka Skybus started up the 717 was out of production.

I still would've thought the plane would become more popular in Europe on intra-European routes, more so than the US. The A319 (unfortunately and not surprisingly being European, won handily). But it's also more versatile and can be used on long range/thin routes. Bangkok air is replacing them with A319s.

**Midnight Mike** · 01-15-2010, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mayi757

If they were counting on VuelaMex (which never got off the ground) to get orders... By the time Heartland aka Skybus started up the 717 was out of production.

I still would've thought the plane would become more popular in Europe on intra-European routes, more so than the US. The A319 (unfortunately and not surprisingly being European, won handily). But it's also more versatile and can be used on long range/thin routes. Bangkok air is replacing them with A319s.

VuelaMex had orders on the books, in fact we trained a bunch of crews and 717 aircraft were painted in the VuleaMex logo scheme, Heartland had orders on the books as well......

If Aloha & Hawaiian merged, which almost happened, the 737-200 would have been retired & more 717 aircraft would have been ordered.