http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/04/travel...html?hpt=hp_t3
Good article, and a push at the end to have it spread across the USA.
Antonis
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http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/04/travel...html?hpt=hp_t3
Good article, and a push at the end to have it spread across the USA.
Antonis
That's awesome. Question I have is, can a visitor go and shoot there solo, or must they be accompanied by one of the ORD Airport Watch folks?
I visit ORD once or twice a year while visit family and usually spend an afternoon spotting. I've never had a problem in a few locations - all public spots like sidewalks or private businesses that are spotter friendly/tolerant, but from what I remember the O'Hare guys can also park along fences that otherwise say "no parking / no stopping" and pretty much go wherever they want. My understanding, though I haven't been back in almost a year, is that the one or two spots that have been used consistently by spotters over the years are largely left alone...and everything else is pretty heavily enforced.Quote:
Question I have is, can a visitor go and shoot there solo, or must they be accompanied by one of the ORD Airport Watch folks?
Your sentiment though is a long term concern of mine about the watch programs. I've never been fully on board with having to register with a police department to do something that was already perfectly legal to begin with. And I worry that some cities may unnecessarily hassle visitors who aren't in that cities program or locals who choose not to join -- or worse consider spotting/photography something that's only a legal activity if you've registered with the program. That the article used the term "para police" to describe spotters was troubling.
So while spotting they must carry id and wear their vests at all times ??? They undergo background checks have to wear stupid looking vests to take pictures from a PUBLIC area ? That's insane and beyond stupid. I can't see the PA doing this.
What information can you possibly garner from taking pictures of aircraft ? A real terrorist would take pics of critical infrastructure like fuel farms and those things are already visible on Google Earth for anyone to view. The people who run the PAPD are fairly intelligent individuals who you would think would know this by now.....
'Para police'? How long before some yahoo takes the law into their own hands
http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/...ps793d5ac8.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by megatop412
Ah, thank you- one of Cartman's finest moments
But nothing tops this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k64w3354kE
This program has a lot of merit and will hopefully spread. I think the ID lanyards are a great idea. As for the orange vests...? The only way you would catch me wearing one of those is if they gave me ramp access, which you know aint gonna happen. :tongue:
I guess it's good for the spotters up there, if they want to pay for a background check for a badge to do something that's perfectly legal, that's their decision. After all it is Chicago where they bulldozed a runway in the middle of the night, good ol Chi-town politics!
SAT has had a volunteer program for years http://aviation.sanantonio.gov/Aviat..._volunteer.asp
Unfortunately, aircraft spotting IS still considered suspicious here.Quote:
The idea is to recruit and train community volunteers to support current law enforcement and security personnel and place them in positions where they could be extra eyes and ears for the Airport Police. Some of the V.A.P. volunteer duties will consist of recognizing and reporting security violations, suspicious activity, assist with traffic control, patrol the parking areas, terminals and perimeter, issue parking violations, assist in special projects and unusual occurrences, and administrative support
I'd like to ask a ORD watch member, which is more of a potential threat to the airport?
A. Father and son watching planes
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7387/8...70ba96fa_c.jpg
B. A vehicle driving by the terminal with Islamic writing on it
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/8...e323695e_c.jpg
The correct answer is 'B'
Especially when above the Arabic writing "B-52" is written
Nice article, hopefully this sets other wheels in motion, althought the wheels might not be turning as fast as we'd like.
Some very nice exposure for planespotting in that article. As for the airport watch program, at its root I think its a great idea though I have a few issues with how they have implemented it in Chicago. My gripes with that particular program aside, any time that law enforcement and planespotters can work as partners instead of adversaries, it is a benefit to both groups.
And I don't believe for a second that the guy in the 4th picture was using his scanner to "...help spotters monitor emergency responders' radio traffic."
I'm a member of ORD watch and while some may say the program has no merit, in actuality it does. Many times we have seen attempted car theft, etc. and reported it. We also report if we see something potentially dangerous on the airfield so that it can be dealt with. If you are not a member, you can forget about spotting at ORD. Besides USG (28R arrivals), all the other spots at ORD, such as Scanwell Logistics (14R arrivals/32L departures), the Police station (22R arrivals/4L departures), and beeline (10L arrivals) are pretty much off limits. So it is in your best interest to join if you plan on spotting there.
Yeah I think that's just some kind of a misunderstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by mldoc
deltaA330, are you serious? If you don't belong to this and you try to spot there they come along and just shut you down? That's crazy. I don't know what's worse, no program @ JFK or mandatory membership in ORD's program. I'm sure you folks have been very helpful with the crime supression aspect of this, it's just that...I do the same thing without a vest. Haven't seen anything suspicious enough to report myself though- trying not to turn into Mr. Foyt here(Cannonball Run)
Ya unfortunately its join or dont spot. Before this program, ORD was a notoriously hard airport to spot. At least there is an option now. Ironically, one of the things we are supposed to report are non-watch members spotting. So just join- its 20 bucks for the background check and then you can spot all you want.
I'm not an ORD watch member, but I don't see where either one is more of a threat than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by RWB
I couldn't agree more. Arabic writing does not necessarily mean that somebody is Muslim (or a threat), and for that matter, being a Muslim doesn't mean that somebody is a terrorist.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
I based my threat assessment on a recent event here last August http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...rt-3754694.phpQuote:
Originally Posted by mldoc
When you see something you're supposed to say something, right? Or only if politically correct?Quote:
Emergency personnel mobilized swiftly after the 2:19 p.m. phone call to the airport in which a man “who had an accent” said he left luggage at the airport and that “the airport was going to blow up,” officials said.
The threat contained specific information about explosives in three cars in the lower level of the short-term parking garage, McManus said bomb-sniffing dogs indicated the vehicles might contain explosives, but that nothing could be confirmed until the bomb squad checked the vehicles.
Still haven't caught the person/s responsible.
Bingo. THough I also agree the program certainly has merit, this is precisely the problem with the program, and precisely why the article used the term para-police. And precisely why I don't approve of it overall. Spotting should not be an extension of the police. It should not only be acceptable if it's a counter-terrorism activity.Quote:
If you don't belong to this and you try to spot there they come along and just shut you down? That's crazy. I don't know what's worse, no program @ JFK or mandatory membership in ORD's program. I'm sure you folks have been very helpful with the crime supression aspect of this, it's just that...I do the same thing without a vest.
I'm not seeing anything in that article that ties Arabic writing on the back of a car to the bomb hoax event. And "had an accent" doesn't necessarily mean "Middle Eastern accent", and even if it was, some white guy could've faked a Middle Eastern accent for all we know.Quote:
Originally Posted by RWB
Since when did having an accent become a crime in this country? We are a nation built of and by immigrants and as a nation we often forget that fact. Moreover, how easy is it to fake an accent? If you're calling in a hoax, wouldn't you want to speak with an accent to both disguise your voice and make it seem more believable? Also, nowhere does that article mention anything about Arabic writing. You might as well have based your bogus "threat assessment" on any of the countless threats or acts of terrorism that have taken place.Quote:
Originally Posted by RWB
So if I wanted to come out for a day or a weekend to spot, I could not just hook up with one of you guys for "escorted" access...to a pubic area?Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaA330
I mean seriously? I am going to get on a plane to fly to your city, to do something that is perfectly legal, and I need to have a background check and pay $20 just to do something I can do for free anywhere else? Please clarify!
Thanks for the refresher class in American history 101. Last time I checked we are still up to our necks in a War on Terror, or as some like to call it, a 'Overseas Contingency Operation'. The whole damn reason there's even a watch program to begin with!! And like Cary said "some white guy", color ain't got nothing to do with it! Those Tsarnev brothers were whiter than my azz, and the guys that chopped up that British soldier, dark as night. It's all about a mind set, worldwide domination, and it's not going to stop. What if any of you were in downtown NYC by the Ground Zero/9-11 Memorial and see a vehicle cruising around with blacked out windows and 'that' writing on it? Wouldn't raise an eyebrow or turn some heads?Quote:
We are a nation built of and by immigrants and as a nation we often forget that fact.
Essentially yes. You can only be escorted by a member if you are under the age of 18. If you choose not to join, your only hope to spot is at USG, where you are able to view 28R arrivals and 14L departures. All other spots are strictly off limits to non-watch members.Quote:
Originally Posted by lijk604
Or it could be someone commemorating one of the several dozen innocent Muslims killed on September 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by RWB
Twenty years ago, a white man, born in the United States and a veteran of the US Military, driving a rental truck, blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City. Based on your criteria, I guess you would have reported it if you had seen me moving last summer...
http://www.moose135photography.com/O...Move_002-M.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWB
You're both wrong. My Arabic isn't amazing but I'm pretty sure that says "Don't Tread On Me" in Arabic (which I have on a t-shirt that I wear). And if I am wrong, looking at the TX plate, it being a pick-up truck, and the B-52 mention, I'm sure it is a taunt toward terrorists.Quote:
Originally Posted by megatop412
also keep in mind that merely being Muslim or speaking Arabic does not actually make you a threat. It takes a little bit more than a language or race to create suspicion.
I think it's referencing to it as "that" writing that people are questioning. What exactly is wrong with Arabic writing?Quote:
Originally Posted by RWB
I guess I'm guilty of profiling, I won't say anymore of my political/personal views.
Phil, thanks for the translation, I'll sleep better knowing the pick-up truck was just a good ol' boy.
SMH.Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaA330
This is where the ORD Watch group, should talk in their meetings, and offer to be "spotting escorts" for out of towners.
They take the responsibility for what they signed up for. If they are true spotters, they will know a true spotter from a "bad guy"
Knowing these facts now, I think this is a horrible program, and feel it was started so that the "Locals" have the spotting areas to themselves.
I'm not fully understanding this. So there are public areas that one cannot spot from if you're not a member?
So if I put a bumper sticker with a picture of a pot leaf on it on my car, that shouldn't raise any suspicions, should it? It shouldn't raise the chances of me being pulled over, or of having my car searched, right?
You know what, for all the times I call bull**it whenever someone says 'we live in a post-9/11 reality now and everyone needs to get used to it' as a response to my complaints about being hassled as a spotter, it's time to turn those tables around. There cannot be a double standard with this. What you put on your car is a big fat advertisement, and you need to go with what most reasonable people will assume. I would think that most reasonable people, 'in this day and age', would find hastily-applied arabic writing to a truck with tinted windows to be of at least moderate suspicion, Texas plates or not. Because that's the world we live in now, right? I'm not saying they're up to no good, that they should be investigated, or that they shouldn't have written on their truck, it is a 'free' country after all. But if you do something that people don't understand, and you use visual stimuli that is associated with terrorism...you kind of have to expect that you may get a reaction. Then again, now that the government has finally come clean about ordering our phone calls to be searched for ties to terrorist groups, we don't have to worry about such petty things
No, it shouldn't. A bumper sticker isn't probable cause of the commission of a crime, and neither is Arabic writing on the back of your pickup.Quote:
Originally Posted by megatop412
I'm really not pointing fingers at any in particular, but I feel this needs to be said...
I agree that NEITHER should be able to allow probable cause to search your vehicle, but I don't think the two compare, because pot is illegal. Being Arabic is not. There's nothing wrong with being from the Middle East or speaking Arabic or being Muslim. There are many Muslim speaking Americans who have fought and died for this country just the same as the white guys and other races.
Seeing Arabic writing and thinking that there is a threat or concern to be investigating is blatant racism. As spotters, the same way that we should not need to be searched for our legal hobby, Muslims/Arabs should not be looked at the same way just because of a displayed language. The difference between the two is that one of them is blatantly racist, and the other is ignorance toward a lesser known hobby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYELqbZAQ4M
Very well stated Phil and Moose.
Thank you.
Back to the topic at hand, I want to clarify that the spots the non-members can't spot at....are they truly public locations? Or are they airport property spots that airport management is allowed to prevent photography from? This is an important variable.
The spots ORD watch members spot at are NOT public, they are private property. USG is the only public spot good for spotting around ORD.
I've read in other places, statements like:Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaA330
"in the Chicago area you are free to spot at any of the areas around the airfield without being a member"
These two quotes seem pretty contradictory.
What type of private property are they? Are they local businesses, residences, or part of the airport itself?Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaA330
EDIT: Looking at the always useful SpottersWiki for O'Hare, there is a long list of places listed as 'good.' However, there is also a decent list of 'places to avoid', one of which is a cemetery with the note that, "...if you are seen with a camera the police will tell you you can't take pictures..." It seems to me that law enforcement there is a bit heavy-handed and i perhaps crossing a line involving freedoms.
Here is some clarification for this thread. An ORD Airport Watch board member has stated that they "do not tell people ever that they cannot spot if they are not a member" and "do not tell them that they need to be escorted by a member". The likelihood of being questioned is likely to go up if you don't have an ORD Airport Watch vest on, but "there is no exclusion for non-members".