KORD - Rent-A-Cop in Terminal 2

Walking through Terminal 2 between flights, I paused along the walkway between F Gates and G gates (where the lotto stand is for those of you familiar with ORD layout) and decided this was a fine time to take an iPhone picture of all the aircraft parked in the Foxtrot Alleyway on F & G Gates. No sooner had I taken the iPhone picture and begun to walk away, a security woman approached me from behind. "Excuse me!!!!" Never paying them any attention while I'm between flights, I ignored this random shout. But then again closer and in my direction, "Excuse me Sir!!" I turned around and here was a woman in the rent-a-cop uniform. "You of all people should know that isn't allowed!" .. I was baffled! Actually!? An iPhone picture of the airplanes on the ramp? "What do you mean, Mam?" ... "You can't be taking pictures of the airfield." I was stupefied. "I'm pretty sure no rule exists. You might want to check with your supervisor before you go around telling people they can't take pictures with their phones." I glanced around while she spouted off at me including the threat to have the photo deleted, I was looking to see that no police/TSA (Official folk) were watching this encounter. (They will almost always side with security until the facts are straight.) I was thinking I could request to see the local ordinance, code section, Airport Authority Directive, "rule" that said the general public at O'Hare were prohibited from making recordings of airfield/aircraft/gate area. But, seeing as my flight was leaving in the next 10 minutes I decided to drop it. I was disgusted with the encounter and told her I had to go fly a plane and to check with her supervisor before presuming to tell the traveling public what they can and cannot do. I turned my back on her and walked away with my dignity.

Halfway to my gate, I got the urge to return and get her name and badge # so I could contact O'Hare security to report her & to inquire if her "rule" was in fact bonafide. (And being almost certain she was simply looking for a reason to pull rank on the public) I decided "F*ck it.." and went on to my gate. Not worth the time to show up a security guard.

I just did a quick look through of the O'Hare website I see nothing about the CDA prohibiting photography. Maybe some of you have more information that will correct me? Either way I will continue to stand my ground & not cower under the harassement from authorities.

sorry about your encounter, also keep in mind that in the terminals security is gonna do this kind of crap more espeacialy whats been going on right now. As far as rules are for ORD i havent came across anything saying that you cannot take pictures of planes. Its not worth the argument even though you are right. See when Ive been through encounters here in NY Ive been told many false rules between Rent a cops, security etc. I know many of them just push the buttons but i dont take risk at arguing back at them even though they are wrong. You did the right thing though

What does she mean, "you of all people"?

I would have told her "and YOU of all people should know that there is no rule prohibiting photography of the airfield"

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Originally Posted by megatop412

What does she mean, "you of all people"?

I would have told her "and YOU of all people should know that there is no rule prohibiting photography of the airfield"

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I was wondering the same thing. I assume she meant "non-yellow-tinted person" :tongue: I think everyone should print out this:
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know...-photographers

as a reminder that photography in a public space like an airport is protected by the First Amendment. This is getting ridiculous, with these types of incidents happening all over again, after a tragedy that had nothing to do with aviation. And in the 12 years since 9/11 (and before it), how many times has aviation photography been part of a terrorism plot? We also have the media to thank for propagating the often-misused "if you see something, say something" slogan.

I go through ORD several times a year and always make time to spot from the AA piers...about 50% of the time I get stopped too. It’s been by everyone from skittish airline employees to TSA ‘officers’ to one time a Chicago PD officer. And I’ve been told everything from “you can’t photograph the international terminal” to the usual “9/11 made this illegal” to “you have to have written permission from the airline to photograph their planes”.

With a little research I found this both in the commercial filming and media resources section Chicago Dept of Aviation site:
"Law enforcement and Chicago Department of Aviation personnel have the authority to stop any unapproved filming or photography at any time."
Since it does not expressly address non-commercial photography while airside I reached out to the Chicago Dept of Aviation Media Relations person. We’ll see what, if anything, they have to say. I’m guessing that they’ll repeat the above statement, which is pretty vague…but we’ll see.

Publicly available space does not necessarily mean publicly owned. Not every airport is publicly owned and thus can do whatever they want...though it appears that in this case O'Hare IS publicly owned.

And of course there's the weird gray area that while photography is generally not prohibited by law from airport terminals and such that doesn't change that for a number of them they'll still arrest and confiscate your camera anyway if you don't stop. And while you might be right and win in the long run they'll likely make the process as painful and expensive as possible.
I don't see any reason, for example, why I can't just show up on the Terminal B parking garage at Logan and start shooting away. Public property accessible to the public and everything in plain (get it?) view. That being said, if you don't check with the airport first Massport will try to kick you out. And if you don't leave, they'll have the state police come up and force the issue. Is that legal? Almost certainly not. Is it worth the hassle of getting arrested, going to court, etc etc...not yet.

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Originally Posted by jerslice

Is it worth the hassle of getting arrested, going to court, etc etc...not yet.

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Then when is it time to force the issue? The next time this happens? Once they execute Tsarnaev? Is our collevtive wisdom here saying it will never be the right time? Is there some threshold we have to cross before it's decided as being 'worth it'? Does anyone here besides myself have an example of refusing to stop taking pictures and nothing happening? I'm not trying to rile anyone up, but sooner or later, someone is probably going to have to get arrested and fight this ridiculousness once and for all(and not in a hysterical, dramatic fashion either). Not saying that anyone should, but that it's probably inevitable.

People are quick to say 'well because the airport can have its own rules they can decide they don't want photography happening on their property, and then be able to rightfully prosecute you for refusing to stop taking pictures'. I'm not an attorney, but that sounds like an infringement upon civil liberties. It isn't the same as them having a rule that you can't shout 'FIRE' or that you can't take your clothes off, behaviors that infringe upon the rights of others. Photography cannot be thrown in the pail with the rest of the inappropriate behaviors. It's a legitimate activity that people have a right to engage in, regardless of whether the airport they're in 'forbids' it. It's a perfectly reasonable expectation that someone on vacation would want to take pictures to document their trip. If they want to stop the picture taking, they would have installed blank walls instead of windows.

The sad part is that the OP was using a camera phone, which should attract even less attention than an SLR.

I thought that I might share something like this incident involving an IPHONE.
Went with my father and brother to the yankee game last week, sitting in the bleechers, the best crowd is over there!
Anyways, in about the 8th inning, the yankees were starting to score runs so the man in front of me (young twenties)
Takes a video on his iphone, and all of sudden on of the female security gaurds (if you've ever been to yankee stadium, you know the people i'm talking about) starts screaming at the guy yelling at him to delete the video and show her it was deleted. AT THAT POINT I WAS FLIPPING OUT INSIDE MY BRAIN, so the guy is like lol ok, laughing about it and questioning her, she then says no videos or photos, even the cop standing there was shaking his head! This is getting ridiculous! No taking a photo or video at a baseball game??????? Are you kidding me!!!!!???

(My theory is that she was reading the rules for yankee stadium and it said "no commercial photog. Equipment" and she was too dumb to understand the word commercial and just read no video and photo) joking... But you get the point.
AGAIN, SORRY FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE AND THIS IS GETTING REDICULOUS. 50 YEARS FROM NOW, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WONDER WHAT 2013 LOOKED LIKE BUT THEY ARE GOING TO REALIZE THAT THERE ARE NO PHOTOS!

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Originally Posted by Jared Blech

(My theory is that she was reading the rules for yankee stadium and it said "no commercial photog. Equipment" and she was too dumb to understand the word commercial and just read no video and photo) joking... But you get the point.

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No, she was enforcing the stadium policies, as listed here:

http://mlb.mlb.com/nyy/ballpark/info...?content=guide

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Cameras and video equipment

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Single-frame flash photography is permitted as are extended-length zoom lenses provided they do not interfere with the game or event or other Guests' enjoyment of the game or event. Mono/tripods, other professional camera equipment, movie cameras and any other video or audio recording equipment are not permitted. Guests are not permitted to transmit and/ or stream or aid in transmitting and/or streaming any account, description, picture, video, audio, reproduction or other information about any games or events.

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Originally Posted by moose135

No, she was enforcing the stadium policies, as listed here:

http://mlb.mlb.com/nyy/ballpark/info...?content=guide

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alright moose, i was in the wrong on this one and thank you for correcting me, imho its kind-of an acceptedly broken and unenforceable rule. she was pretty rude about everything the whole night, she was even yelling at us when we were all standing on the bleachers when the camera man was filming our section onto the big screen. She was just standing there screaming, "off the bleachers, get off, get off",no one was listening to her anyway...like come on lady, its a 30 second thrill at every big event to be shown on the big screen, stop screaming your head off at us.
the rule also states that

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Guests are not permitted to transmit and/ or stream or aid in transmitting and/or streaming any account, description, picture, video, audio, reproduction or other information about any games or events.

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does that mean that i can't text my buddy "the yanks just scored a run and tied the game!"?? thats transmitting a description of the game isn't it, thats just absurd...

That may be, Jared. It has to do with the MLB rights to the game. I've been following baseball since 1969, and they have always read a disclaimer about that on any broadcast...

"Any rebroadcast, reproduction, or other use of the pictures and accounts of this game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball is prohibited."

Since we have strayed a bit from the original topic of this thread, let me try to bring it back by posing a question...

If a police officer, TSA agent, security guard, etc. tells you that it is illegal to photograph aircraft, and demands that you delete the photo, should you report him for attempting to destroy evidence of a crime?

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I'm not trying to rile anyone up, but sooner or later, someone is probably going to have to get arrested and fight this ridiculousness once and for all(and not in a hysterical, dramatic fashion either).

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I totally agree...the day will need to come. But I just don't have tens of thousands of dollars for lawyers fees...plus the problem of having to deal with an arrest on a criminal history report (something, that, as a caseworker, I see on a regular basis impeding lives even for stupid crap), and I can't afford to take off weeks or more from work. Given that I'd rather just steam about it, walk away, and report the incident to the officer's supervisor. If it ever happens that I do get arrested though, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll fight it to the last penny I've got.

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f a police officer, TSA agent, security guard, etc. tells you that it is illegal to photograph aircraft, and demands that you delete the photo, should you report him for attempting to destroy evidence of a crime?

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I look forward to seeing the response next time I get asked that :-)

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Originally Posted by megatop412

Does anyone here besides myself have an example of refusing to stop taking pictures and nothing happening?

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/gulfstream_g-v/7456982014/
What's really F-ed up is at the same location you might have 50-200 people at the same location at 1AM-3AM waiting on the Spurs to return after a play-off game, no problem , go figure?
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7097/7...5aed74a7_c.jpg

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Originally Posted by megatop412

What does she mean, "you of all people"?

I would have told her "and YOU of all people should know that there is no rule prohibiting photography of the airfield"

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I was wearing a creased white shirt with stripes on my shoulder ;-)

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Originally Posted by Jared Blech

I thought that I might share something like this incident involving an IPHONE.
Went with my father and brother to the yankee game last week, sitting in the bleechers, the best crowd is over there!
Anyways, in about the 8th inning, the yankees were starting to score runs so the man in front of me (young twenties)
Takes a video on his iphone, and all of sudden on of the female security gaurds (if you've ever been to yankee stadium, you know the people i'm talking about) starts screaming at the guy yelling at him to delete the video and show her it was deleted. AT THAT POINT I WAS FLIPPING OUT INSIDE MY BRAIN, so the guy is like lol ok, laughing about it and questioning her, she then says no videos or photos, even the cop standing there was shaking his head! This is getting ridiculous! No taking a photo or video at a baseball game??????? Are you kidding me!!!!!???

(My theory is that she was reading the rules for yankee stadium and it said "no commercial photog. Equipment" and she was too dumb to understand the word commercial and just read no video and photo) joking... But you get the point.
AGAIN, SORRY FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE AND THIS IS GETTING REDICULOUS. 50 YEARS FROM NOW, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WONDER WHAT 2013 LOOKED LIKE BUT THEY ARE GOING TO REALIZE THAT THERE ARE NO PHOTOS!

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Hah, how lame! And to think, how much money are you and everyone else paying for the 'privelege' of watching a professional sporting event, while the players make millions. For as much money as you pay to get into a game you should be allowed to take whatever crappy cell phone videos you want. Do they really think the next day a bunch of dudes are going to be huddled around an iphone's depiction of Jeter stealing home??? Ha I say

And skyteam18, I would have said "I am conducting the video portion of my walkaround. Surely you wouldn't want me to miss any details that could lead to an unfortunate incident, would you?"

Ok this is how I see it, a sec, cop or airport personel would see you taking photos of aircraft, this is how i see it. They say that just to scare you off or just they have nothing better to do. I still think that this 9/11 thing is getting beyond carried away. Sometime I even say that they dont like anyone having a hobby of aviation or etc. I once saw a youtube video of a guy videotapping a train ride and a conductor came up to that person and said that its prohibited to take photos and videos and said to that person that theres nothing speacial about trains and that he needs to find a new hobby. I know i hope I would never get told like that about aviation. I wont give up my hobby for any crap.

You tell them Sergio!!!

Can't wait til I have an ORD layover at the airport hotel when I'm carrying my camera. I've got a couple of spots in mind to shoot from, and I'll make sure to try and get some from inside the terminal too. I'll pull out my I phone with literally 24 years of photos of airplanes from ramp side as well as a few of me "at the office." I'll be interested to see what they say. I LOVE causing trouble! :wink:
(Don't worry...I won't do it in a way that will cause any detriment to any of you who plane spot for a hobby...)

Just to put this discussion into perspective, here's a case where some people I know were seriously inconvenienced by the police though they did no wrong. I work in the entertainment industry, where a knife is an essential tool for a day's work. A few years ago several of my colleagues were stopped by the police on different occasions because they had their knife clipped to their pocket so that the clip was visible. NYS supposedly has a law that you cannot carry a knife on your person in such a manor, unless you are travelling to or from work. Due to the unconventional hours that we often work, the cops assumed that these individuals were not traveling in this manor despite what they were told. In each case, the individuals were thrown in jail overnight, only to have the charges dismissed at arraignment the next morning by some judges who were fairly incredulous at the NYPD for having wasted their time with such a clear-cut non-violation. However in most if not all of these cases, this arrest caused them to be late or miss their next day's work. The police are there to enforce laws that they think are being broken. Unfortunately, on some occasions their knowledge or interpretation of the law is wrong and it is the general public that pays the price.

Ben, that further proves my point. If we sit around and keep saying "it isn't worth it, it isn't worth it", this problem will never be solved. I agree that most people don't have the time/money to fight such a fight, but at some point the law of averages is going to put someone in that position whether they feel it's worth it or not

I think in Chicago there is an ordinance banning photography at airports. IIRC correctly it applies at both ORD and MDW

O'Hare has an airport watch program,and allows photography around the airport.

Doug

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Originally Posted by markg

I think in Chicago there is an ordinance banning photography at airports. IIRC correctly it applies at both ORD and MDW

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Thanks Mark. Id like to hunt this down. Can Anyone produce this local ordinance? If so then we'll have solved the mystery.

OHare responded with the following:
"Our legal department is looking into this matter and it may take some time."

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Originally Posted by markg

I think in Chicago there is an ordinance banning photography at airports. IIRC correctly it applies at both ORD and MDW

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Is it even legal to ban photography from public property around an airport ?

I go to ORD atleast once a year,and always run into other spotters. I have never had a problem taking pictures.

Doug

Outside the airport and inside are two different things. Inside appears vague, given that ppl are regularly hassled, yet the powers that be can't point to an actual law or policy banning it...and ORD even officially implied as much by saying that they're legal team would have to look into it when I asked them this week...if they had a clear policy they would've responded by now with what it was and where I could find it