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All I can say is they better not fine B6, it's not there fault that the airport wasn't prepared and didn't assist with getting pax off. If anyone should be fined it should be the airport.
The passengers paid JetBlue for travel, not Bradley...it is the airline's responsibility to get them to their destination, and it is the airline's responsibility to have contingency plans when conditions interrupt that travel.Quote:
Originally Posted by seahawks7757
Well, the relationship is symbiotic between FAA, Airports and Airlines... I think they each have a role to play. Personally, I feel the FAA should relax their rules in tough emergency situations and do all it can to facilitate the twisiting of any rules without jeopardizing safety and/or security. Second, the airports should have a huge responsibility to get air stairs out to any stranded plane anywhere and get buses out there to the airplanes and bring the people off and on to warmer, safer, more comfortable conditions. OR at the very least, bring food and water out. If the weather paralyzes the aircraft/airport, THE ENTIRE AIRPORT RESOURCES and the AIRLINE should be devoted to getting all planes emptied BEFORE working on anything else like clearing snow NOT related to the primary goal.
Ultimately, if there is major weather, DO NOT LAND ANYWHERE where you can;t get to a gate and safely off the plane, unless absolutely impossible!
I have been stuck on a plane for only 3 hours and I feel like getting off. I can;t sit still for too many hours because my legs and my brain can;t handle it... I am sure there are those who can deal with even much less... add to that myriad of conditions both physical and psychological and it is simply unacceptable. I mean, this sort of thing DOES NOT happen all the time. SO no one will be hugely impacted if all resources are devoted to the safe and quick exit of all pax from all planes as soon as humanly possible!
The airport is also paid landing fees and concessions and should have some plan in place to assist especially in a situation like Expressjet 2816 when TSA and the airline staff were all gone and it was 1am. Priority should be safety and it should be treated as a rescue situation and not a finger pointing deal. B6 is probably going to take the fall here since the airport was overwhelmed and it's staff were doing all they could but in this case and it seemed B6 just sat there and did nothing. Airports can't be given immunity though.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
I am a bit dissapointed in you Moose. What contingancy? How do you develop a contingency for an unforseen even like a power outage that shuts down a fuel farm and jetbridges? Use airstairs? In blowing winds exceeding 30 knots with freezing precip falling? Take off again and risk getting yourself into a tighter spot? Come on man, you flew transport catagory jets, this shouldnt be a discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
#1. No food or water for 7 hoursQuote:
Originally Posted by hiss srq
#2. Bathrooms overflowing and stinking to high heaven
#3. Your not on a 747 so you basically are sitting in your seat the whole time
#4. Air quality in the cabin probably sucks.
#5. Not to mention the countless health issues you are going to encounter.
Hell deploy the damn slides just get the people off the aircraft. I couldn't care what the weather was. Have fire and rescue sand the damn things anything is better than doing nothing in these situations. You already had one bad situation at JFK there should have been a plan. We put a man on the moon for pete's sake we can have 100 people deplane in an snow storm with no power.
Here's my humble take on the event. Did ANYONE check to see how many aircraft were diverting to that airport? Were any other options even considered, or was it a case of, it's a jetBlue station, we can just go there? I ask because not 1 aircraft diverted to Islip. Islip did not have the snow that those other airports (BDL, ALB) saw. ISP is ON Long Island and much closer to JFK if you needed buses. The bus travel time for the pax would have been a lot less. And before you ask, ISP had space....Southwest's schedule was slower due to the storm in the AREA so there were gates available. There is also parking for such sized jets at Sheltair, Exclaire & Liberty Jets if it was needed. With the exeception of Liberty Jets, the other two FBO's could have also offered fuel, and assisted passengers with rides via cabs or limos.
Did jetBlue get caught with their pants down? Yes. Will the FAA fine them? Yes, I'm almost sure of it...this is not their first passenger incident. It's time for the airlines to LOOK at the alternatives to them. Don't just take the easy way out because it's there. Think of ALL the logistics available to you, come up with a plan, be prepared.
Im sorry....NO excuses here....NONE. You get the people OFF the aircraft and into the terminal. I dont care how much snow is falling, I see zero excuse why over a seven hour period airstairs, a plow, and a few busses/shuttles cant be brought out to the plane. Heck, bring the damned plane CLOSE to a terminal, within walking distance and have the passengers walk into the building.
This was a domestic flight so there is even LESS of a decent rationale why this cant be done, as there are no customs issues to deal with.
sooooo, your upset with the airport then? The pilot can not deploy the slide and can not let people on the tarmac or he gets fired....
at least they did not run out of Colombian coffee!
You are spot on John but this goes back to spilled milk. His wheels are down and he can't leave. He is stuck on the tarmac and he has people ready to kill each other and a paraplegic and a diabetic. Everything is out the window. Get people off the aircraft and into terminal. Everything else is secondary. Talk about a bad choice where to divert later.Quote:
Here's my humble take on the event. Did ANYONE check to see how many aircraft were diverting to that airport? Were any other options even considered, or was it a case of, it's a jetBlue station, we can just go there? I ask because not 1 aircraft diverted to Islip. Islip did not have the snow that those other airports (BDL, ALB) saw. ISP is ON Long Island and much closer to JFK if you needed buses. The bus travel time for the pax would have been a lot less. And before you ask, ISP had space....Southwest's schedule was slower due to the storm in the AREA so there were gates available. There is also parking for such sized jets at Sheltair, Exclaire & Liberty Jets if it was needed. With the exeception of Liberty Jets, the other two FBO's could have also offered fuel, and assisted passengers with rides via cabs or limos.
Everybody is to blame here Fred. In this case the airport was doing all they could and was overwhelmed but when Expressjet landed in Rochester there was no snow, all airline personnel and TSA were gone and only airport employees were there. Can't just sit there and let people in even a smaller aircraft sit all night. No excuse whatsoever.Quote:
sooooo, your upset with the airport then?
Well then enjoy the millions in fines and horrible press. Costs a heck of a lot more long term.Quote:
The pilot can not deploy the slide and can not let people on the tarmac or he gets fired....
As an airline when you are planning your altenate. You generally want to use the the most convinent and therefore closest alternate - That is when the weather is no problem.
When the weather is crappy for forecast to be so, you have to find a compromise between an alternate with a legal forecast (weather-wise) and one that is operationally suitable, meaning one that has ground handling and all services for your aircraft. Problem is, in these situations is if you have to divert , chances are most everyone else will too. In the case of JFK/LGA many airlines love BDL, MDT and PHL ( just as an example )just as MKE is frequently used for ORD so when you are diverting, you may find yourself competing for service once you land. If the weather has not improved when you get to your diversion airport, you can not depart and as more diversions arrive... the situations can quickly spiral out of control.
Sometimes, you can try and use more distant alternates, they will of course mean carrying additonal fuel which you may be forced to make a compromise between carrying all revenue or offoading some and carrying more fuel. most flights in bad weather involve some compromise in terms of performance, flight planning etc. So If an airline has 10-15 flights headed for a place like JFK or LGA you should plan to use more than a single alternate if operationally feasable..
Just my .02 , what say you dispatchers and pilots out there?
That was my thought as well, John - why on earth do you send all your aircraft into the heart of the storm, when there were better alternatives available? Yes, Ryan, I've flown transport category jets, and I would have (and have had) come up with better plans than diverting into a storm to find a place to land. They made a bad choice in sending their aircraft to BDL, and once there, abandoned their responsibility to the passengers.Quote:
Originally Posted by lijk604
This wasn't ExpressJet in Rochester, this was a major airline screwing up big time in not adequately preparing and executing a plan for dealing with adverse conditions.
Firse off, no one abandoned ANYONE on that night. Second off, anyone who ACTUALLY knows what they are talking about (I.E. Pilots, controllers, etc) will tell you, the only option was BDL at the point where the decisions had to be made. Boston Center called NY TRACON and everyone else that would listen and essentially told them to eff off because they would not accept any more divert traffic into BOS. Know your facts. ;) Some of those planes were going to Boston.
One has nothing to do with the other. Sure the diversion was bad but whatever the case the captain got his souls on the ground safe and he is trying to either get them to their ultimate destination or somewhere with working facilities till he can leave to do so.Quote:
That was my thought as well, John - why on earth do you send all your aircraft into the heart of the storm, when there were better alternatives available? Yes, Ryan, I've flown transport category jets, and I would have (and have had) come up with better plans than diverting into a storm to find a place to land. They made a bad choice in sending their aircraft to BDL, and once there, abandoned their responsibility to the passengers.
Of course it isn't but it's showing an alarming trend started at JFK on that Valentines night. Whether you are a big airline or small one it is the same equation and needs to change.Quote:
This wasn't ExpressJet in Rochester, this was a major airline screwing up big time in not adequately preparing and executing a plan for dealing with adverse conditions.
Whether you divert to Osh Kosh I could care less. Airfields and airlines needs to have something in place to make sure pax get treated a bit better. It's not rocket science and it's not even close to being a hard thing or costly at all..Quote:
Firse off, no one abandoned ANYONE on that night. Second off, anyone who ACTUALLY knows what they are talking about (I.E. Pilots, controllers, etc) will tell you, the only option was BDL at the point where the decisions had to be made. Boston Center called NY TRACON and everyone else that would listen and essentially told them to eff off because they would not accept any more divert traffic into BOS. Know your facts. ;) Some of those planes were going to Boston.
Remember the days when air travel was considered luxurious? Domestic travel within the US is far from it. I have rarely felt genuinely pampered domestically. Consistently, when flying to Europe on a foreign carrier, it has been much more pampering the feeling. Not necessarily ACTUALLY more pampered, just felt better about my trip from the point of view of how I was treated from counter to baggage collection on the other side.
Last flight to MCO on Conti, the counter agent was actually calling her supervisor a bitch! I am NOT kidding... it was shocking that it went on... All passengers were literally in shock .. the agen clearly had pent up issues she needed to work out at the unemployment line, not in front of pax. The rest of the flight had the tone set!
Listen to the recording linked in Matt's post - right around the 3:45 minute mark, the B6 captain asks Ground for assistance saying "We can't seem to get any help from our own company..."Quote:
Originally Posted by hiss srq
And I still don't believe that BDL was the only airport that was available - it may have seemed "convenient" since B6 has operations there, but there were airports open and not effected by the weather that would have been more suitable.
And I'll state once again...not one aircraft, not jetBlue, United, Continental, American, US Airways, etc...diverted to Islip. As a dispatcher, when bad weather is forecasted...such as a major snowstorm which this was, we choose TWO alternates. Yes one may be farther away, however, it is chosen so that the pilots don't have to stress that both choices are just as bad as the original.Quote:
Originally Posted by hiss srq
This storm, like 95% of storms in this area traveled from the south, north-eastward up the coast. Once it hit the NY Area, where is it heading? Connecticut! So why any dispatcher would choose an airport in CT as it's planned diversion station baffles me. The forecast had this as a quick-moving, heavy precipitation dumping storm, and they were 100% spot on.
At this point, let's just hope that the lesson was learned and better choices are made going forward.
Yea I mean after the Valentine debacle at JFK which B6 got crucified in the press and for the most part came out not too damaged they can't let this happen. It should have been a call to action. Jeez I mean I don't care if David Neeleman himself had to get his butt there with a snow blower to clear a path for those people you do it. Leaders lead, not make excuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
Listening to that recording I also remember him thanking airport people for doing much more than his "own people" did. I was blown away after that.
You screw up once and say to me. Sorry I screwed up. Fine, but you have the knowledge of something you need to correct. Second time is sheer imcompetence and epic fail.
I do wonder about this, and the questions that I'd like to ask are things I can't find out unless I spoke to the pilot and/or dispatcher of the flight. Did they have enough fuel to get elsewhere? did they contact the station in advance? Would ANY of their trouble have happened if the power didn't go out? What was the forecast when the flight was released? What was the METAR for BDL and JFK at the time of diversion?Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
These would all shed light on what went on. It may have been the right decision until the unforeseen kicked in.
Although the pilot's comments ARE concerning and upsetting, that they seemed abandoned. I wonder if that was by their own ground crew due to the weather conditions or if system operations was overwhelmed. Again, many questions.
Also, many airlines simply wait too long to divert. I think dispatchers will be quick to tell the Captain to hold and see if they can wait it out, which may actually be a mistake when the condition is a snowstorm. Snow doesn't pass through an area like a summer t-storm, and holding only means that you are letting other planes land at your alternate before you....which means you'll be on the ground longer waiting to get gas and other services. It's often better to divert asap, gas up and then get out of there before the other aircraft follow suit.
I'm also curious as to what other airlines that diverted were experiencing. Remember, 20 or more planes diverted into BDL that day, and I didn't hear this from anyone else. I just don't drop blame on B6, as I want to learn more about what happened first.
WSJ's thorough investigation: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...sj_share_tweet
Quote:
"Then, a diverted Lufthansa Airbus A380 super-jumbo plane from Frankfurt had to park on one of Logan's longest runways, shutting it down. With 13 diverted planes—along with regularly scheduled flights—stacking up, Massport issued an unusual notice telling airlines to call for permission before sending Logan additional diversions.
"We're no good to anyone if we gridlock the airport," Mr. Freni said. The airport never closed and would have taken flights with emergencies, Mr. Freni said. "This was as serious as it gets."
Airline dispatchers got the go-away notice and passed it on to pilots. Officials at Delta, American and jetBlue all say they had New York-bound planes headed for refueling in Boston that instead had to land at Bradley International Airport near Hartford, Conn. In all, 29 aircraft diverted to Hartford in a span of just two hours. All intended to "gas-and-go," and five made it out. But conditions quickly deteriorated.
Bradley's fuel facility suffered electrical power failures, airlines say, which crippled refueling. Power went out in the international-arrivals building, so the jet-bridge and baggage belts didn't work. Luggage had to be carried manually to passengers. Mobile stairs—commandeered from jetBlue—were used to get passengers off planes."
Read the detailsQuote:
In the end, all six flights tried to get people off at the three-hour deadline, but some planes were blocked by other jets and couldn't move to the terminal, jetBlue said. Moreover, jetBlue never got to use the portable staircase it lined up to deplane passengers because it had been nabbed by the airport to get people off the international flights.