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My friends often visit JFK's Terminal One to spot planes. Suddenly on Sat. July 24, they were told to leave by a lady. I don't know her position. She said if she ever saw them again, they would be arrested. Can spotters get banned from JFK? They weren't doing anything suspicious as far as I know, not even using cameras or binoculars. I also visit Terminal One to see the new Airbus A380. I am worried she will bother me, too. Is there any recourse if told to leave?
Photography on airport grounds is against the rules in NYC. These rule are set by the Port Authority. Port Authority has a stance to discourage plane spotting. This is why to do not endorse any on-airport locations, and use public parks in the area instead.
But if someone who is a cop tells you to leave, you should just leave and not ask questions, so to prevent escalation.
[quote="Phil D."]Photography on airport grounds is against the rules in NYC. These rule are set by the Port Authority. Port Authority has a stance to discourage plane spotting. This is why to do not endorse any on-airport locations, and use public parks in the area instead.
When I was at T1 two weeks ago waiting for my delayed flight I wandered around and took pics. But at the same time
I was using a smaller digital camera and made sure no security was around. I didnt see PAPD just private security
guards in black suits with walkie talkies.
My friends weren't doing photography just watching the aircraft at JFK's T1 on Sat. but were still told to leave. They had no cameras, no scanners, no binoculars. Aren't terminals public places? They were told the police would be called if they ever returned to Terminal One. How can they be banned permanently? What laws were broken?
How sad that the Port Authority discourages plane spotters. While most other airports have areas for plane spotters to take photos, JFK does not. LAX recently re-opened their observation deck and that aerodrome has also been a target in the past so the PA's objection to spotters is unreasonable. Also, since when is standing by a window at a terminal watching aircraft, without a camera, a suspicious activity that gets my friends banned?
I've heard this said a number of times, but have yet to have anyone point to an actual rule posted anywhere. Not that I'm doubting you, Phil, and I'm not asking you to violate any confidences, but if Port has a rule in place banning on-airport photography, they need to publish it somewhere that people can see it. Otherwise, it is no different than the MTA cops enforcing the non-existent rule about no photography in the subways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
There is actually a place on the ports website I think in the media section that says "If you didn't get a good picture while at the airport have a look at some of ours" this was as of a few months ago. I have a print out of it somewhere.
They have signs throughout the terminals that state "No Loitering". That alone can cover a good deal of the public’s actions while present inside a terminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
I completely agree, and I think that Port intentionally doesn't publish it, bu they have no problem enforcing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
You'd all be absolutely appalled if you heard the quotes and comments I've heard from Port officials with regard to our hobby.
In the meantime, I will discourage people from using airport grounds for spotting. If others want to URGE it or do it anyway, then that's fine.
Oops... LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
On a different note, I was banned in September 2004 from the Elizabeth IKEA by whoever was running the private security there because I was filming arrivals on the 4s at EWR. Granted I didn't have my car there at the time so it's not like they can ban me because they know the car I rode in... (they did not get my name but got a great description of the car I was riding in!)
I wouldn't, the behavior of certain spotters led to where we are today. Spot's like the terminal garages and cargo area were never going to be group locations yet spotters continued to treat these spots as such. Now you really can't utilize them unless your either alone or with one other spotter and lay low. Mostly using them for a certain airframe and leaving. At this point unless a huge event is going on like the when the Whalejet first came or such the terminals will be tough spots to visit and unless the people here that have relationships with PA try to mend the fence this will be the case for all the good spots on airport grounds. Go alone and lay low for short periods of time and when asked to leave do so quickly without incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
I think that's a little extreme. The cargo area location is the only place where enthusiast behavior was ever brought into question, and even that can be considered somewhat debatable. And even so, it was one spot that was "ruined" because there is such a lack of acceptance of enthusiasts to begin with. I feel that if we weren't pushed around so much, we wouldn't feel the need to go to certain locations that might be more risky.
How? I know for a fact certain episodes at the cargo area were the reason the cement barriers and total crackdown on that area was implemented. It was foollish and selfish behavior and is a big part of the reason certain areas such as cargo plaza was lost. Veteran spotters tried in vain to voice their opinions on how to shoot at these locations and it was totally ignored by spotters who felt it was their right to shoot in large groups and do stupid stuff on top if it. It's a seldom talked about fact but a fact nonetheless.Quote:
The cargo area location is the only place where enthusiast behavior was ever brought into question, and even that can be considered somewhat debatable
After 9/11 of course we experienced total lack of acceptance out of fear but as for the sensitive areas they were comprimised by foolish actions. If spotters were a little patient and used good judgement over time we could have improved relations with PA but we will never know now. As for getting pushed around I don't buy it, these locations were used because of runways configs and abused by a feeling of entitlement.Quote:
it was one spot that was "ruined" because there is such a lack of acceptance of enthusiasts to begin with. I feel that if we weren't pushed around so much, we wouldn't feel the need to go to certain locations that might be more risky.
I personally feel that Port has had a pre-disposition against spotters beyond the cargo area "incident", and I also don't think that the cargo area thing was even that big of a deal...they just ended out ability to use it. I just don't think it's as epic and game-changing as implied.
Their thoughts and feelings toward us were in place well before that cargo area thing. Simple fact. I'm sorry I can't publicly share emails and proof of this, but we shall see what happens in the future.
Between 9/11 and the way some spotters didn't use good judgement do you blame them?Quote:
I personally feel that Port has had a pre-disposition against spotters beyond the cargo area "incident",
Yea it was only one of the best spots, what's the big deal?Quote:
and I also don't think that the cargo area thing was even that big of a deal...they just ended out ability to use it.
Well call it what you want it drove home the point that many veteran spotters were trying to get across and that is if you don't use good judgement the few good spots left will be lost forever which in this case came to fruition. At the rate we are going with the president we have and the attempted attacks against spots in NY we have probably lost it forever. You may think this isn't game changing but in reality it's a major blow to spotters in the area. Not to mention we have to be very careful not to lose the other spots that afford us great views of that part of the airfield. I have seen these spots being discussed openly in the forum, which is totally foolish. Not trying to bash people here but we all have to be careful when shooting and discussing these areas. If we want to be able to shoot from them from this point on. The writing has been on the wall where it can get to the point that we won't be able to go anywhere near the airport grounds and that would be unfortunate.Quote:
I just don't think it's as epic and game-changing as implied.
Oh I am not debating this just saying we didn't do ourselves any favors toward improving the situation.Quote:
Their thoughts and feelings toward us were in place well before that cargo area thing. Simple fact. I'm sorry I can't publicly share emails and proof of this, but we shall see what happens in the future
I haven't heard that many bad comments except about the guy who wears that Polo hat :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
Help has been offered...
Couldn't agree more. When folks drive up to a group of us in the Firestone lot and ask us what we're doing, instead of having a polite and informative conversation which is usually well received, some of us respond with "We're taking pictures of airplanes. Got a ****ing problem with that?" It makes us as a whole look like a bunch of jackasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
I do frequent N. Woodmere Park a lot and even there I see the Nassau County police there patrolling the grounds near where I spot and photograph 22L arrivals. I know this is a bit overboard, but even I am careful not to photograph around them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
I hear all of you who have been confronted by the PAPD. I have been pulled over by them on a couple of occasions and eventually gave up trying to photograph, less alone pull over my car, on JFK grounds. The most I do now is drive slowly through the terminals and spot quickly hoping that I won't catch the wrong eye of an officer or security guard.
Happy Spotting,
-Jeremy :cool:
It's how you approach police that counts... Approach them like you belong there or from a friendly demeinor angle as in nothing to hide... Or if you address them before they you, it tends to show openness and respect for their concern.. They are less apt to bug you
The cargo spot you guys are talking about, is that here?
http://i56.tinypic.com/kb6pll.jpg
What does the president have to do with losing this spot? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
While it is not strictly allowed, it does not seem to be strictly prohibited other than ON or AROUND taxiways/runways. But you do need a permit for general areas, and a specific permit from the operators of all other areas
http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/media-access.html
Click the middle tab (Video/Photo) for details
No, that is not it and people WILL be removed from that spot if they spot there.
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Originally Posted by TSGSpotting
Loved that spot back in the 90s. I used to take my kids there, park the car and hang out. Others did the same. Yeah times changed!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGSpotting
It is too bad that the PANYNJ cant welcome spotters in a friendlier manner. If they are really that scared of us why dont they put in a badge program for spotting? $5 for 1 year. I wouldnt mind paying $5 to have a spotting deck on premesis. They could easily but an observation deck on T4, the T5 garage or someplace else. There are so many things they can do to keep an eye on this and make JFK experiences better for everyone.
What is the cargo incident everyone keeps referring to? I know nothing about it. And since the area has been lost, it wouldn't hurt anything to discuss it. Maybe if people could read about it it might discourage stupid behavior.