Government reaches a new pinnacle of incompetence.
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Government reaches a new pinnacle of incompetence.
I'm in shock. Dow was down by as much as 700 points. Over $1 TRILLION dollars lost in today's trading. I don't think the people who voted against this have any clue about the mess they have gotten themselves into. We're really screwed. I used to be a registered Republican. I will never vote for this party as long as I live. Today is a sad and shameful day for the country.
Actually closed -777. It was pretty insane...when it was first clear the bill was failing it dropped about 705 pts, then recovered a bit. At one point I was watching a live ticker and watched it drop from -440 to -640 in less than a minute, and then it went back up 100 just as quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by bonanzabucks
Have you forgot the House doesn't need Republican votes? They have the majority. Fact is 40% of Dems voted against it too. There are many out there that don't like this bill as it is. It's a big debt to get into. Not to mention it was rushed.Quote:
I don't think the people who voted against this have any clue about the mess they have gotten themselves into. We're really screwed. I used to be a registered Republican. I will never vote for this party as long as I live.
C'mon. House Republicans made a stink about this bill to begin with for ideological reasons. Their counterproposal was absolutely laughable. Senate Republicans support the bill. The House doesn't. They made it into a political and ideological issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
As for big debt, we're in a big debt already. The Iraq War costs a lot of money too. We never considered those consequences before going into debt?
Ya, not to mention we'll never see that Iraq money again. With these bad mortgages and such that the government would be buying, there would be some return, and even a possibility of a profit.
While in a way the plan amounts to a bailout for rich guys, voting against this plan doesn't hurt the rich guys as much as it's going to hurt the workers at the factories owned by the rich guys and middle and lower class folks in general. If your local bar buys beer on credit, for example, there's a chance he might not have credit anymore, no beer, and nothing to pay his bartenders with.
How? Everyone I heard today had real concerns about the fact that this is astronomical debt to get into and the Scy would have total power over it. Seemed pretty practical and not ideological.Quote:
C'mon. House Republicans made a stink about this bill to begin with for ideological reasons
What about the house Dems that voted against it? What was their reasoning? Your buying into the media talking points. The House voted it down. A good percentage of the Dems' majority included. What was their excuse? Why didn't they vote for it? Please give me a real reason and not the Chris Matthews sound bytes.
Well, the Iraq War got us into an astronomical debt and I never heard any concerns about that at that time. So much for the "fiscal conservatives" who claim that was their reason for shooting this down. And, as Matt said, we're NEVER going to see that money back. With this, at least there is a chance to see some of it back.
Look, I have concerns about spending that much money, but the consequences are much, much worse if nothing is done and we "ride it out" as a lot of House Republicans suggest we do. Our credit markets are frozen. A lot of people just don't get that and what it entails. Our economy's lifeblood is the credit market. Businesses run on credit and if they can't get loans for basic expenses like payroll, etc., then they're going to start laying people off and, well, you know what happens. The 6.1% unemployment we have now will be like spit in a pail compared to what will happen if we "ride it out". It is going to be a long and very painful ride for the vast majority of people in this country. And really, that's the reasoning most House Republicans voted against the bill because they were ideologically against government intervention of any kind. Nothing to do with practicality.
As for House Democrats, I can't explain why so many voted against it. Pelosi has herself to blame for this for not reigning her party in. From what I heard, they didn't vote for it because they wanted more spending or tax increases. I'm not a Democrat and I don't listen or watch Chris Matthews, so I have no idea what he's say on this, nor would I care.
But when you have a Republican President, Republican Senate members and a Republican Treasure Secretary all pushing for this to go through, and it fails because members of their own party (they just needed twelve more votes) in the House have ideological qualms, then it's a Republican problem. There is no control in that party.
What worries me the most is how it looks to our foreign debt holders who hold a lot of US Treasury Bills (i.e. debt). It makes us look bad and that we don't have our house in order. If they start selling, then the frozen credit market will be the least of our concerns. This has the potential to spiral even more out of control.
So, Dow is down 777 points, or about 7%. That's more than $1 TRILLION dollars gone and flushed down the toilet. You OK with that kind of loss?
bonanzabucks and Nick...stop the crap and stop trying to put blame on one party...here's the deal..Both parties failed..They failed the American ppl and if something isn't done real soon we are going to be in deep $hit. It’s high time the American ppl tell our failed Gov't either do your job or we are going to replace you with a Gov't that can.
This is a National Disaster that will touch all of us. I'm just at a loss at what our Gov't is thinking lately. While this might not be the best solution it’s really the only one we have right now.
Tom did you take the time to read my post at all? I said the house voted it down? Did you bother to read that far? Obviouosly not. I also asked Bonanza to clarify why he felt the house Republicans were to blame and why the dems voted against it. He admitted he didn't know and went as far to say he didn't care. Driving home a scary fact that he wants this rammed down our throats and a huge amount of money to be given to companies that created this. All with malice of forethought. Gladly that didn't happen today.Quote:
bonanzabucks and Nick...stop the crap and stop trying to put blame on one party
Well I think what we saw is that the system works. The house didn't pass this and both sides want it worked further. Also remember that you put these people in the house back in 06'. Let them work this out. All this propaganda about people losing their jobs, businesses not making payroll is merely more scare mongering by our beloved media. Let us have a reality check here, in a capitalist society this happens. Companies downsize, go out of business etc. Where has the outrage been? Now you are asking the very government you don't want involved with business to give it 700 million dollars and do it ASAP. Well I don't like it. It's hyprocacy and the only reason it's being discussed is the timing of it. Let the system work and hopefully we will get a bill that will help us and not kill us in the future.Quote:
I'm just at a loss at what our Gov't is thinking lately
And that's just today. It might go down that much again tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that until there's a solid solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by bonanzabucks
Disclaimer - I am not really sure if Michael Moore actually wrote this or sent this email out, but in any event enjoy...
__________________________________________________ ______
Friends,
Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:
"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.
"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.
"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.
"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."
Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.
This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something -- NOW! Here's what you can do immediately:
1. Call or e-mail Senator Obama. Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they've made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what's the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.
2. Take to the streets. Participate in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).
3. Call your Representative in Congress and your Senators. (click here to find their phone numbers). Tell them what you told Senator Obama.
When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again!
Yours,
Michael Moore
[email protected]
MichaelMoore.com
P.S. Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this new bill. There is no direct ownership given to the American people for the money being handed over. Foreign banks and investors will be allowed to receive billion-dollar handouts. A large chunk of this $700 billion is going to be given directly to Chinese and Middle Eastern banks. There is NO guarantee of ever seeing that money again.
P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House. THESE DEMOCRATS ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS THE BACKBONE WE GIVE THEM. CALL CONGRESS NOW.
I seem to recall Bush on at least one occasion, perhaps more, stating that it "didn't/doesn't matter" how much this or that is going to cost these last years... we're just going to go "do it".Quote:
Originally Posted by bonanzabucks
And, alot of folks, Dems and Republicans, seem to agree with him.
Its infuriating that we have the likes should-be-dead-already Bin Laden predicting the imminent collapse of the US Economy for 7 years, and we can't seem to prevent that possibility...
40% of the Democrats voted against the bill :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by bonanzabucks
Nancy Pelosi may have caused a bunch of Republicans for not voting for the bailout plan
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/09/2 ... is-speech/
He did, I read it on his blog today. He has a point, but his logic doesn't help anything. The working stiffs he supposedly stands for through his films are the ones who are gonna get screwed, not the rich guys. If not for the OTHER bailout for the car companies, which cannot build cars without credit, much of his beloved Michigan would be a ghost town in a matter of weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Turner
I think this is the best summation of the situation I've read, courtesy of a commenter on another blog...
Quote:
this whole bailout thing is just telling america, "hey, rich and powerful corrupt people run america, I know you don't like to save them, but too bad! you have to or your children will starve"
So far that is not happening.Quote:
And that's just today. It might go down that much again tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that until there's a solid solution.
Got to tell I never thought I would agree with this blowhard but read this.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/30/dobbs.qa/index.html