JFK - Burger King 11/04

My friend Andrew and I decided to do some spotting at JFK today and let's just say we had a bad experience at BK. We were there for a good hour and a half actually spotting - not including waiting 30 minutes for my lunch, which they somehow managed to SKIP MY ORDER - when two NCPD officers came by. They asked my friend Andrew about what he was doing there, along with what I was doing. Andrew also mentioned to both officers that he was in the USAF as a crew chief in AC. The officer I was talking to asked me how often I come to Kennedy and I told them it's been nearly a year and that I came up because I wanted to see some different traffic than what I get at PHL. They saw my ID - valid DL (and questioned me why I had another DL in my wallet, which was my expired one, which I never seemed to take out), and Andrew showed his military ID. I asked the officer who was talking to me if we were allowed to stay and they said that we were okay and they proceeded to leave.

Now, here's the kicker - less than two minutes pass and another NCPD patrol car pulls up. This guy decides to be a pompous ace hole and told us we had to leave. I told him that we had someone stop by and said we were okay. He then proceeds to tell us to look at the call he responded to, asked rudely if Andrew's car matched the description they had (color, type of car, Jersey plates and STATING THE PLATES). I said yeah thats true and he responded with "yeah you should leave while I'm here." And leave we did. We ended up heading back home.

So yeah, this was my first encounter with ANY law enforcement around Kennedy. The first two cops seemed very courteous and I was about to tell them what was flying over when to further get them to thinking "oh they are just plane geeks". There was a man who was looking from his hotel room (the hotel next to BK) and I presume he was the one who called the cops on us. Whatever... the light kinda sucked at that hour anyway and I got to go flying in the morning, so the weekend wasn't a total washout.

They should seriously run a story about this on NBC or something to introduce aviation photography hobby to the public...
Sad sad sad... :(

Sorry to see you had a problem, Steve. I can't remember the last time NCPD gave any of us a hard time spotting. Probably this guy was just having a bad day...

Josh May and I got a bit of a hassle from a NCPD cop a couple of weeks ago, but he didn't ask us to leave; he just took our info and told us that what we were doing wasn't a good idea. Then he left and we didn't get bothered again.

Intresting, the guys that patrol that district are generally pretty on the up and up about us as we have all been going out around the area to spot for so long. Probably just a bad day for the guy.

That's extremely surprising considering that not a few minutes earlier, there were other NCPD cops that told you everything was fine. It's also surprising since like Moose pointed out, we haven't had any problems with the NCPD for the last few weeks or months even (dare I say...). I know my encounters with NCPD have been both productive and extremely professional, and the guys I have dealt with have been great and very accepting of the hobby. Sorry you had a bad experience Steven, but I hope that you'll try JFK again and hopefully with better luck.

It's unfortunate that so many on their force seem to have an understanding, and that some others choose to go their own way. I guess he missed that meeting that his fellow officers were in.

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Originally Posted by Phil D.

It's unfortunate that so many on their force seem to have an understanding, and that some others choose to go their own way. I guess he missed that meeting that his fellow officers were in.

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Sounds like the same dude when we were at Firestone two weeks ago. Remember the first cops were cool and that one officer who showed up later was giving his own officers a hard time about us? I'd bet real money it was the same officer. It is very unfortunate that one officer is going out of his way to give us a hard time while others in his own dept act professional and courteous. I think if it happens again it might be advisable to get his name and badge number and speak to his commanding officer; he's not representing his squad very well and unless requested by the property owner he really doesn't have the right to demand us to leave if we are not breaking the law.

Yes, to me it's not so much that he asked spotters to leave, it's the he has no problem disregarding his fellow officers' comments just minutes prior. I find that to be disappointing.

>My friend Andrew and I decided to do some spotting at JFK today and let's just say we had a bad experience at BK. <

Could have been worse. That annoying BK King could have came out and chased you around!!
:lol:

Hahaha about the King!

Seriously though, I do want to come back to Kennedy and LGA more often - it's the fact that my trip is now an hour longer each way since I no longer go to Rutgers.

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[Sounds like the same dude when we were at Firestone two weeks ago. Remember the first cops were cool and that one officer who showed up later was giving his own officers a hard time about us? I'd bet real money it was the same officer. It is very unfortunate that one officer is going out of his way to give us a hard time while others in his own dept act professional and courteous. I think if it happens again it might be advisable to get his name and badge number and speak to his commanding officer; he's not representing his squad very well and unless requested by the property owner he really doesn't have the right to demand us to leave if we are not breaking the law.

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Tommy if he has recieved a call or calls from people it means these people are probably nervous about our presence. So yes he does have the right to ask you to leave. It's private property. I think under the circumstances (and we all have experienced this at other locations and other airports). Best thing is to leave and go back at a later time. Your telling me if your at EWR and Elizabeth PD tells you to leave your going to tell them your doing nothing wrong and he has no right to ask you to leave? I'll talk to my friend who is a Sgt in the 4th but I would hope we continue to obey LO. I don't think he is "going out of his way to hassle us" Remember that he is responding to a call and if he makes a decision to ask someone to move along he is doing it for a reason. If the person in the motel is in fact the one who called he would just have gotten back on the phone if he saw people doing something he deemed suspicious still there.

Nick is right in the sense that we cannot resist a police officer's commands like that. At least, we shouldn't. we can always follow up or report an incident after the fact, but the best method of dealing with it is certainly to do what they say.

However, if we are customers of an establishment and not doing anything illegal, I think that us leaving the premises is really up to management.

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However, if we are customers of an establishment and not doing anything illegal, I think that us leaving the premises is really up to management.

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Not exactly Phil. If say for the sake of argument that the person or persons in the motel overlooking the lot get nervous from our actions and call. If local LO makes a decision we can stay that is great but if like in this situation he either doesn't want to deal with it or is a hard on and tells us to leave he is the final say not the property owner. Whether we are patrons or not.

I see what you're saying. Though it might not realistically apply, if we do specifically have the Burger King manager's PERMISSION, then that does override the police officer's request.

That gives us permission to be there, practicing what is legal. The police officer requesting us to then leave would be like a cop telling us to leave our friend's apartment because we someone outside knows and dislikes us playing poker or something.

I thought of staying at that hotel next to BK last time I came to NY and was wondering - what if I was staying there, taking pictures in the car park, and PD came along and asked me to leave - what does being a resident of the hotel bring up?

That is a good question. I wonder. As long as you get permission from the manager of the hotel, you should be immune to police dismissal.

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Originally Posted by NIKV69

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However, if we are customers of an establishment and not doing anything illegal, I think that us leaving the premises is really up to management.

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Not exactly Phil. If say for the sake of argument that the person or persons in the motel overlooking the lot get nervous from our actions and call. If local LO makes a decision we can stay that is great but if like in this situation he either doesn't want to deal with it or is a hard on and tells us to leave he is the final say not the property owner. Whether we are patrons or not.

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Nick I thought you said you were leaving this website...interesting. But since you appear to continue let me say...you have not clue what your talking about. If a property owner gives you permission to use his property for use and that use is legal the Police cannot tell you to leave, its that simple. Argue as much as you like but Nick your wrong. Its like a cop telling me what I'm allowed and not allowed to do with my own property..its called private property for a reason Nick.

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Nick I thought you said you were leaving this website

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I believe I said I wasn't going to post much but that is ok, I kind of remember hearing you say shooting in the firestone lot sucked but afer a few months then I heard you saying you found the spot and it was great. Cue the Hillary flip flop meter.

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If a property owner gives you permission to use his property for use and that use is legal the Police cannot tell you to leave,

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No kidding, but I doubt BK had any idea what was happening. This is just spin. Merley buying a soda or food doesn't give you free reign in a parking lot to do whatever you want. If someone from the motel or another patron is being made uncomfortable by your actions and a PO says to leave you are leaving. Maybe we can all ask permission from all the establishments that own the parking lots we shoot in? Then we can tell the police we have right to be there. That should go over big. Fact is no matter how you feel about the cop he was in the right. He got a call and he had to do something about it. You may have not liked it but that is the way it is. You are going to exploit the notion that since BK themselves didn't call then it's alright to be there? You all are making a huge assumption. In this instance BK was prob oblivious to what was happening.

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I thought of staying at that hotel next to BK last time I came to NY and was wondering - what if I was staying there, taking pictures in the car park, and PD came along and asked me to leave - what does being a resident of the hotel bring up?

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If you have permission from the hotel to shoot then it doesn't matter if you are staying there or not. You can shoot on it's property. Totally different from what happened at BK.

You're right in the sense that unless the manager did express permission for you to be there, that we have to listen to the police. I agree with that. If we don't get/seek that permission, we must leave if told to by police.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience on Sunday.
I was at BK a couple days before and fortunatly didn't have any problems.
From other post for this fourm, when a cop takes your info down does he just check your past info or do they make a note in their system under your name about what happened?

wow Nick you just totally spun what you orginall said........

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he is the final say not the property owner. Whether we are patrons or not.

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I think you need to clarify yourself....Are you saying...

1. If we have permission from the property owner the police still have the final say over the owner's decission even though what we are doing is perfectly legal?

2. The Police DO NOT have the right to ask us to leave?

Just answer with either of the above choices, 1 or 2, it’s that simple. That's what the discussion is if they have the right or not when we have permission from the owner. Don't complicate the discussion, don't spin it the discussion simple give a clear answer.

You also said you were done with the site John Kerry...

Ladies, you're all beautiful! (Mario impersonation)

Clinton and Kerry references....this is getting serious! haha

Though words came out differently, I think we're all actually in agreement.

Diet Dr. Pepper DOES taste just like regular Dr. Pepper.

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Diet Dr. Pepper DOES taste just like regular
Dr. Pepper.

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Of course it does, because DP gets that awesome taste
from caffeine and not sugar. How I miss it.

Now on to Mr. Alfano

Tommy everyone here knows that if you have permission
from a property owned you can do whatever you like as
long as you are within the law. Yet did this happen in
this case? See a major problem here is that people
can't stay on topic. If we stick to Steven's incident
you stating the obvious really has no business in this
thread.

If Steven had permission from the management of this
BK that is one thing(buying food there does not
count). He did not so he was in the back shooting
without permission. If an officer responding to a call
asks him to leave(even after the first officers were
nice) he should leave. BK never should enter in the
equation. Why this got spun is beyond me but if you
stick to the facts I can't see arguing or even
contacting his superior. We got into this discussion
after the Costco incident in which you seemed to think
that the manager couldn't ask us to leave unless he
did the same thing to the fisherman. Again total fantasy.

I didn't ask for permission mainly because of the really lousy service I got while in BK ordering for my food (had three young kids cut in front of me... didn't say anything because I didn't want one of them pulling a gun out and shooting me) as well as waiting a looooong time for my order, with them SKIPPING my order and the people behind me receiving theirs well before I got mine.

I will be back at that spot the next time I spot at Kennedy - you can count on that! NCPD has yet to see the last of me - in fact, they do not have any of my information down so it's not like I'm red flagged from them or anything of that matter.

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Originally Posted by Steven Holzinger

I didn't want one of them pulling a gun out and shooting me.

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And this is relevant?

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Originally Posted by Steven Holzinger

I will be back at that spot the next time I spot at Kennedy - you can count on that! NCPD has yet to see the last of me - in fact, they do not have any of my information down so it's not like I'm red flagged from them or anything of that matter.

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Yes, you against them.... Kill it for all of us. If you give them attitude they'll respond to all spotters with attitude. Be smart and courteous.

Don't worry Steve, it's rare that NCPD gives anyone a hard time about spotting. Hope to see you the next time you're out this way.

Time to lock the thread.