Yeah I read about that the moron NYPD as usual fires first and asks questions later it is a shame too the guy was getting married today
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Yeah I read about that the moron NYPD as usual fires first and asks questions later it is a shame too the guy was getting married today
I split this from the "AirTrain Suspended" thread since the circumstances are completely non-aviation related.
From the facts known now it's strongly possible that this was a "bad" shooting on the part of the cops, but I think we should reserve judgment until a.)they release a statement and b.)we get facts from people other than the dead guy's friends and Al Sharpton. If it turns out the accounts made so far are the truth, this will turn into a terrible mess on par with the Amadou Diallo shooting.
That is what I am afraid of because supposedly it involved an car collision and no one is sure even why the police started shooting. I am by no means a fan of Sharpton trust me but NYPD has a bit of a track record here of their monkeys getting over zeallous and such.
Certainly jumping to conclusions, hiss. Police don't fire just for NO reason. Whether it really was justified is another issue.
I'm very interested in seeing what went down, and how the AirTrain was involved.
After reading what I read in the papers and getting a decent idea of what happened, I can understand why the officers opened fire, but the one 12-year veteran detective that fired 31 shots himself makes little sense to me.
From my understanding of what was going on, and the time-line in my head, I would assume that the supposed "threat" would have been neutralized by the time he loaded his second magazine....much less emptied that one, too.
However, I'm confused as to why the driver of the car (the groom) rant he officer over. Was he scared of getting arrested for drunk driving before his wedding maybe? Maybe he didn't see the badge of the cop and thought the cop was with the people he was arguing with? I can see why the driver might have floored it. Why he continued to hit a police vehicle after that (which was marked as a police vehicle as I understand) also confuses me.
But again, I can see the view of the officer that was struck by the car (who was NOT the man who fired 31 times), as the car did become a deadly weapon to him.
It should also be said that most of us have no idea of exactly what happened or how it feels to be in that situation, the "heat of battle" and the stress that a police officer faces everyday.
I'm usually on the side of the police in these situations, but I, too, think this might have been pretty excessive.
From the various articles I have read maybe it did not go as said because the police said in one article I read that they began firing after the collision. Perhaps the collision was initally accidental and than the second hit was a panic type deal. Either way I think NYPDis partially full of crap because they said two diffrent people yelled about guns in the car and they had no guns at all. I think that the NYPD is covering their arses to a certain level but than again I never really had much respect for alot of NYPD knowing many personally myself. I am a bit against the NYPD usually no matter what though. That is my take at least but again I was not there. Nonetheless EXCESSIVE is defineately a key word. NYPD has a track record of being power tripping morons though who are too fast to pull a gun.
I've read in multiple places that discussion among the men in the car before tehy got into the car (as overheard by the undercover officer) was that they implied to those that they were arguing with that they had a gun and commanded a friend to retrieve it from the vehicle.
Otherwise, I think that your view of the police is totally inappropriate. Being against the cops is one thing, but labelling officers as morons is just as moronic. You're in no position to make the harsh judgements you have.
Their "track record" is easily explained away and only makes them sound bad by the hands of the juicy-story creating media.
You know I do not like the media either and I am the first one to rip them for the juicy "issues" but I know plenty of members of the NYPD and I do not like too many of them to be honest . I am a law abiding citizen like the vast majority here BTW. I have little or no respect for the NYPD is the bottom line and the track record justification is crap to me as far as the depeartment is concerned because it is pretty common knowladge that under Kelly this department has been a cesspool. Kerik was a little better but The force used was rediculous. It is no furthur explainable than that. They did not need to open up and unload like that. Did they think they were shooting super humans or robots or somthing? Come on! The department is one of the most pothetic in the nation. Plenty of heros fron 9-11and people who busted their butt or gave their lives to save many but in the realm of morals, values, logic, etc etc etc.. NYPD is a joke. I have seen better policing by non deputized crossing gaurds than on the NYPD main force. Also in regaurd to the disagreement that this undercover cop heard. If they were pulling away in a car obviously they were not going to a car to get a gun to use it. Common sense. Over zeallous cops as usual on the force. They only thing that they are good for is to make sure those uniforms do not get moth holes in them.
Not a fan of the NYPD? You've been living in NYC for what....a month?
As for the "track record" that you speak of, what exactly are you referring to?
If an officer is being run over by a car (assuming it looks intentional, granted, we were not there), you don't think that would justify a shooting? Maybe not 50 shots, but not worthy of fighting deadly force with deadly force?
As for "super humans", they were shooting a car. No matter what you might see in movies (which I'd bet is where you get your gun and shooting knowledge from), 9mm rounds will not penetrate a car's doors, and a more than average amount of bullets would be needed to get the job done (agian, 50 might have been too much, I really don't know at this time).
Getting in the car to leave? If you read more about what was said so far, they had reason to believe the men in the car were about to conduct a drive-by shooting. That explains your "driving away" theory.
The NYPD is a joke? Agian based on what? I can't wait until you get mugged and the cops come to help you. I'd lov eot see what you are basing this one. Thinking they need improvement is one thing, but your comments are completely inappropriate.
"Get my gun " was overheard during an argument. The police trying to stop a shooting attempted to control the situation. The driver chose to use the vehicle as a dangerous weapon, striking and officer, backed up and stuck a PD vehicle then proceeded forward at the struck officer and it resulted in deadly physical force to stop the vehicle.
All three shot have criminal backgrounds, the driver for drug and gun possession. These were not choir boys.
As far as one officer firing 31 shots this does sound excessive and should be investigated. If you haven't been in that situation it is hard to say why there were so many shots. With the automatics it is easy to unload the weapon.
Number one I was raised in New York Phil so a month is wrong about 15 years out of my life I have lived here and no my knowledge does not come from movies I am entirely aware of how a gun works etc. I am not as ignorant as you might think to things Phil. I am fully clear. Recall for the last two years or so I lived in a state where everyone has a gun and everyone in my family owns one just about as well. I have been around handguns and rifles of various types my entire life here in NY, out in Utah, down in Jamaica, down in Florida as well as South Carolina so I think I know enough about weapons. The individuals got into an altercation with someone in the club and perhaps were using a scare tactic as is proven. Still no reason for this. And the accounts by several say that the van was number one unmarked, number two the police did not ID themselves as cops, number three they approached with guns drawn this is after not advising that they were cops. So there a few issues right there. Than the excessive force factor plays in. I am not anti cop but I have never held our cities police force in high regard EVER in my life. They mayor as per an interview I just listened to with the Dep. Mayor is disgusted even with this even t and the procedures used. Standard protocol states that a cop shall not use their firearm on a vehicle or from one unless deadly force is absolutely needed and this is only after identifying themselves as police officers. So does this incident smell of fish? I think so. And if I were to get mugged you can believe I am going to defend myself. I understand there are good cops and bad cops out there as stated above I know many from the NYPD and I do not much like them. I like police I have plenty of friends and though about joining the force even down in Florida but NYPD is wrong here and if Bloomburg is leaning toward that than you know that something is up. Give it up the NYPD are not the holy saviors you seem to make them out to be.
You say that the cars were unmarked as "number one", implying that it's wrong for cops to have an unmarked car.
Who said they didn't ID themselves? Menawhile, only one undercover officer approached the vehicle (the one who was hit). Name your source saying that he wasn't identified. I read two local newspapers that say the officer did ID himself. To give credit, maybe those inside the car didn't hear. That also cancels out "point number 3".
You say you NEVER gheld the NYPD in high regard. Wouldn't you give them the benefit fo the doubt early on in your life until they give you a reason not to?
Using a car to run over a police officer IS use of deadly force. The officer's statemetn says that he DID identify himself.
It seems like you're intent on only believing the side fo the story that goes against the police,a nd give zero credence to anything the politicians, NYPD or event he media are saying in regards to what happened.
I'd also like you to point out when I called them "saviors" or even implied as such, becuase I even said that though the initiation of fire can be understandable if the accoutns given are accurate. I've even said that the AMOUNT of firepower might have been excessive. I'm not all pro-NYPD on this particular matter.
Again, and this is where my issue with you lies, is about the "track record" the police have which you claim makes all 35,000 officers "morons".
I have been listening to the news on the radio alot today to and from LGA and this includes the deputy mayor himself on one of ther shows who said that in several accounts he was given there was no mention of the fact the police tried to or did id themselves to the people involved. I do not say that the van was bad but if your out that late in Queens and a van with no sembleance to a police van based on looks pulls out ot block you and than you see people jumping out of that van weapons drawn only a few things can come out of it. One the people take their chances and either get stuck or the cops do whatever. Two They make it out of there by some luck. Three they haul arse at the van or defend themselves. I am sure that in that situation I would be vert apt to defend myself espesially if unaware they are cops. And BTW I NEVER trust cop statements after an incident because even if they did do it none of them will talk they will all have had a cover made by the time backup arrives. It is called the blue wall and I know someone fired by NYPD over an incident not covered in the 90's well enough. So I do not trust a police officer. Maybe the best way to deal with it was not to be there that late but come on the guy was getting married in about 7 hours. Refering to track records now. The NYPD has a history of botched deals where innocent people are delt "justice" and where power tripping cops take it upon themselves to be the officer, the judge, and the jury. This has generally been covered up by the police department with very few examples of the cop actually being delt with in a propper manner. I give respect to cops for the good they actually do but my general experince with them has always been that they have an attitude and are cocky a holes in alot of places. And I am not refering to the "TOURIST COPS"in manhatten that everyone not from here HASto have their picture with.
Again I think the Deputy Mayor and Mike Bloomburgs view on this aloe speaks enough of a point because neither of them are at all happy and are strongly leaning againstthe PD on this one. You would think that is enough to que ya in somthing IS rotten.
Your sequence of events are alittle off.
First, an officer that was on foot approached. The van didn't come into the equation until after the foot-officer was struck.
Both sides have excuses about why they wouldhave shot/panicked and ran.
I don't always ask for specific exmaples of things, but when you call the cops morons and say they have a horrible track record, I have to ask, and you still have not given any actual exmaples.
Many of the previous shootings of innocent people or the Abner Louima case are great examples Phil. They are gleaming examples and this as well. I do not take away the fact that on occasion you find a good cop. Or the cop in Brooklyn who shot another off duty at White Castile after the off duty tried to show his badge.
The only track record I see is someone who jumps to conclusions and name calls. :roll:
Abner Louima - The opposite of you, I see it as a case of finding some bad cops in a majority of good ones. Those guys WERE animals, and in that case, the law did the right thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by hiss srq
As for the White Castle shooting, the officer was drunken AND just got the **** beat out of him while waving a gun.
Try thinking about ANY of these situaitons (save for Louima) fromt he position of the cop.
You show up to White Castle nad see someone acting like a loon waving a gun....then in your direction. What do you really expect the cop to do?
You have reason to believe a group of men in a car have a gun. You approach them, identify yourself as a officer (whether you know if they heardit ornot) and the next thing you know is they hit you with a car, ram a cop van and rev up to hit you again. Do you just stand there doing nothing? (The 50 shots aspect is alot, like I said, but that would only point out the one detective who fired 31 shots on his own as maybe being a bad apple).
I'll even throw in Amadou Diallo for you. Four officers approach a man in a dark vestibule, and he reaches in his pocket. As this is happening one of the officers falls backwards off one of the steps, giving youthe impression that he was shot. One officer fires, others join him, a second officer happens to fall and you think the man int he dark is still firing at cops.. Bullets that bounce off the door and building are bouncing near yoru feet....making you still think that he is firing at you. All of that in the matter of less than 10 seconds.
Honestly, not even to prove you wrong, but do you think that if you were the officers in any of those situations that you either would not have felt your life was in grave danger or that you would have been able to stay onthe right side of the judgement call? That would be QUITE a risk to take otherwise.
I would not take a chance in either situation. If I was the plainclothed officer....I'd have fired. If I was the approaching officer at White Castle... I'd have had no choice but to fire.
Unfortunately, those incidents ended in tragedy. Your implications make it seem as thought he cops jsut felt liek shooting people and really don't care in the least. Do you think that the 5 officers involved in the shooting the other don't feel horrible? Do you think the 4 officers in the Diallo shooting don't think about that every day? (I happen to know one of them).
Honestly. Take a fair second and put yourself in their shoes. Of what they go through every day. Think about the undercover officer that was hit by the car. He's working undercover in a not-so-great neighborhood. He thinks about his fellow officers that we discovered to be cops a couple years ago by some criminals who dragged both cops out of the car and shot them execution style and left them to die on a street corner. That's in his head, talk about a gun among these guys, the scene looking like it's going to turn into a drive by....then an Altima hits you.
Really. Put yourself in their shoes.
Not sure which account you guys read, but today's Post had a more detailed story, albeit from unidentified sources. Of course the details in stories like this are never 100% correct, but we do get a better idea of what might have happened. Here's the Cliff's Notes version...
-- Two undercovers were in the club looking to bust hookers.
-- One of them sat next to a girl he thought was going to solicit him, when she started talking to a large man about a fight she had with a group of guys earlier in the evening, apparently Sean Bell's bachelor party.
-- The burly guy placed the girl's hand on his waist saying "That's what I'm here for", and the cop saw a handgun in the guy's waistband.
-- Probably thinking that a gun bust would be better than a hooker bust, the cop went outside to radio his backup about the man inside with the gun.
-- While the undercover was outside, the man with the gun, the suspected hooker and Bell's group left the club and began arguing loudly outside.
-- Suspected hooker was overheard saying "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all."
-- Member of Bell's group was heard saying "Let's get my gun from the car. Yea, we're gonna f--- him up!"
-- Fearing a gunfight, undercover urgently calls for backup and follows Bell's group to the car. When they get in, undercover stands in front of the car screaming that he's a cop. Bell hits the gas and strikes the cop, badly cutting his knee.
-- One of the passengers, who may have had a gun, jumps out of the backseat and runs away.
-- Officers in two vehicles pull up and box Bell's car in. Bell tries to drive through a police van, and crashes into a steel gate on an adjacent building.
-- Bell revs toward the undercover again, prompting the cop to yell "He's got a gun!" and start firing.
-- The other cops, thinking they're under attack, fire also.
All I can say is I trust the NYPD over that moronic clown, Al Sharpton, any day. I absolutely despise that bafoon. He does so much damage to race relations than anyone else. It's like he's going out of his way to start a race war.
By the way, where the hell was Sharpton when those two black undercover cops were killed three years ago in Staten Island? I didn't see him standing for their rights. He's the biggest hypocrite out there.