Photography Forbidden

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10-12-2006, 11:21 AM
Speedbird1

Photography Forbidden

There is a double-standard as far as photographing aircraft. Many of us have been chased-away and even harrassed by the authorities when seen taking photos or videos of aircraft. There was a terrible crash of a private plane yesterday into an apartment high rise in Manhattan. How much would these same authorities like to see photos, or better-yet, videos of the crash? They prohibit photography yet it would be very helpful as a tool to investigate the tragedy. They should remove the ban on all photography of aircraft. I don't see how photography poses a threat.
10-12-2006, 12:02 PM
jakbar

Re: Photography Forbidden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedbird1

They should remove the ban on all photography of aircraft.

There is no ban on photography of aircraft. That may be what some law enforcement want you to believe, but it just isn't true.
10-12-2006, 01:53 PM
emshighway

There isn't a ban or law prohititing photography of aircraft. There may be a suspicion that persons taking photos of aircraft, buildings, bridges, trains and even other people may be used for other reasons than a hobby.

I don't understand how you believe anyone would have had photos or videos of the crash had anything been different.
10-12-2006, 02:47 PM
hiss srq

Spotting and photog is not forbidden some law enforcement officers would like you to beleive it or just do not know the facts and some just really get off on throwing the power of a badge around. Either way it is as illegal as looking at the bird in your neighbors tree.
10-12-2006, 05:44 PM
emshighway

Hey, tell them you are bird watching....

The birds just happen to be metal.

Truly sick avatar.........I love it!!!
10-12-2006, 06:44 PM
T-Bird76

While there is no ban on photography remember if you are on private property you can be asked to leave for any and all reasons. Photography in public areas is a protected right in the Bill or Rights.
10-12-2006, 07:23 PM
emshighway

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Bird76

Photography in public areas is a protected right in the Bill or Rights.

Hmm, double checked but I didn't see anything about bearing a flash.
10-13-2006, 08:46 AM
Speedbird1

Correction

It is true that there is no "official" ban on airline photography but there might as well be. Just try going out any weekend and stand outisde airport property for a while holding your camera with zoom lens and start shooting. Soon enough a patrol car will appear and you will be asked for an ID, get asked about your purpose, and harrass you. You will be told to leave at once.Don't even attempt to take photos inside the airport. If this hasn't happened to you yet, you've been lucky. It will happen.Several friends have had their photos deleted and endured other harrassments. As a result, I've switched to building scale model aircraft at home.
10-13-2006, 09:08 AM
T-Bird76

Re: Correction

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedbird1

It is true that there is no "official" ban on airline photography but there might as well be. Just try going out any weekend and stand outisde airport property for a while holding your camera with zoom lens and start shooting. Soon enough a patrol car will appear and you will be asked for an ID, get asked about your purpose, and harrass you. You will be told to leave at once.Don't even attempt to take photos inside the airport. If this hasn't happened to you yet, you've been lucky. It will happen.Several friends have had their photos deleted and endured other harrassments. As a result, I've switched to building scale model aircraft at home.

I'm sorry you've had that experience however I think I would have pushed the matter. Take the officers badge number and go speak to his commanding officer. Explain what your doing where you doing it and ask is it illegal. Many of us have had similar experiences and when we know we are right we stand our ground and prevail. I remember one time at Costco an officer asked us to move on, we stayed put as he watched us and he did nothing. The fact of the matter is he can't. May I ask you a question, how old are you? I've found Police seem to get away with these tactics more with teens then adults.
10-13-2006, 09:12 AM
moose135

You haven't been out with me, then Speedbird. Yes, I've had half a dozen encounters with law enforcement when out shooting. Yes, they ask for ID, they want to know who they are dealing with and are within their authority to do so. Most are familiar with our hobby by now. Yes, there were a couple of times when the officer came on strong (see my write up in "Spotter Blotter" about the JFK Cargo Area) but by being polite yet knowing and asserting my rights, the conversation soon becomes civil and respectful.

The one time I was asked to leave was at the Cargo Area - that was 4 days after the arrests in England involving the liquid-bomb plot, came after over an hour in that spot and was in part at the request of the security of the airline who uses the lot. http://nycaviation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3109

You want to see a great encounter with law enforcement? Read my write up on the BK lot - http://nycaviation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3449

I've never had a police officer ask that I delete my photos, and I don't consider any of my encounters "harassment". They typically come out when they are called, and I'm glad to see that they are responding to such calls. Hell, one time a bunch of us were at Costco, and a Port PD car pulled up on us. In the middle of asking for our ID, he let us shoot photos of the Icelandair Cargo 757 that was on approach. Does that sound like harassment to you?

As I said, you need to be polite yet understand and clearly explain your rights.
10-13-2006, 09:29 AM
Midnight Mike

Re: Photography Forbidden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedbird1

There is a double-standard as far as photographing aircraft. Many of us have been chased-away and even harrassed by the authorities when seen taking photos or videos of aircraft. There was a terrible crash of a private plane yesterday into an apartment high rise in Manhattan. How much would these same authorities like to see photos, or better-yet, videos of the crash? They prohibit photography yet it would be very helpful as a tool to investigate the tragedy. They should remove the ban on all photography of aircraft. I don't see how photography poses a threat.

Of course there is a double standard, there is Freedom of the Press in the United States and members of the Media carry ID & their Press Credentials at all times.

Back to the everyday photographer, there is no law that says taking photos of an aircraft is illegal.

Of course, it depends where you are, if you are taking photos of an aircraft in a restricted area, if stopped by the Police, yes, the Police are going to make you leave.

There is increased security in areas involving aviation, so, yes, the Police are going to question people that are doing anything questionable.

If stopped by the Police no your rights, if going on a Spotting Trip carry ID with you, be polite to the Police, they are simply doing their job. If you are in a restricted area, and the Police ask you to leave, then leave...

I was watching people taking photos of aircraft in a restricted area, they went into their truck & took out a ladder, leaning over the fence, & then they wonder why they gain the attention of the Police... :roll:
10-13-2006, 10:21 AM
NcSchu

So far the only time I've gone spotting was at EWR 3 years ago and I went with my Dad. We drove over to Olympia Drive by the CO employee parking lots. We were looked at strangely by staff driving by in buses but no police officers came over. We were there for over an hour and a half as well. I'm guessing it looked pretty innocent, because then I was about 6 inches shorter than I am now (6'3") so it was pretty obivous it was my Dad with me. However I'm not completely sure if that area is airport property becuase it's across the turnpike so maybe they couldn't do anything about it.

Has anybody noticed a difference between spotting in groups and by yourself? Perhaps it looks more "suspicious" when there's only one person there taking pictures, as opposed to a tiny group having fun.

Once I get a car I intend to go down to EWR to try some different spots. It's annoying that EWR's surrounded by highways or else it might be easier to get a nice, safe place. And by safe I mean safe from harrassment.
10-13-2006, 10:29 AM
T-Bird76

Quote:

Originally Posted by NcSchu

So far the only time I've gone spotting was at EWR 3 years ago and I went with my Dad. We drove over to Olympia Drive by the CO employee parking lots. We were looked at strangely by staff driving by in buses but no police officers came over. We were there for over an hour and a half as well. I'm guessing it looked pretty innocent, because then I was about 6 inches shorter than I am now (6'3") so it was pretty obvious it was my Dad with me. However I'm not completely sure if that area is airport property because it's across the turnpike so maybe they couldn't do anything about it.

Has anybody noticed a difference between spotting in groups and by yourself? Perhaps it looks more "suspicious" when there's only one person there taking pictures, as opposed to a tiny group having fun.

Once I get a car I intend to go down to EWR to try some different spots. It's annoying that EWR's surrounded by highways or else it might be easier to get a nice, safe place. And by safe I mean safe from harrassment.

theirs power in groups. Spotting alone ducking in and out driving around is very suspicious and just plain stupid IMO, not the spotting alone part but ducking in and out doesn't send a good message. Making yourself noticeable and standing out is much better then hiding.
10-13-2006, 10:33 AM
SengaB

You all have seem to have forgotten my "Unauthorized Photography Case" from Newark. I wasn't even taking pix at the time and pulled over for unrelated reasons.

Taking pix is illeagal while on the NJ Turnpike. However, since I wasn't not engaging in photography at the time and simply had my camera displayed the cop cited me for "Unauthotized Photography".

People do get their Camera sand film and pix taken away and CF cards deleted in the NCY area frequently.

Please do not forget about those thats have been detained away from the site. There is really no excuse for that. Some might to make excuses for this kind of enforcment but if you are doing everything LEAGALLY then there is no reason for off site "detention"

Some people seem to think things are always unkee-dory out there. There is a possibility for some are and NOT for others. Here are a few questions to ask yourself:

Some questions to ask your self when determining why some people get harrassed alot and other so not.

- How many people was I, and do I usually shoot with when when the encounter(s) too place?

- Was everything I was doing totally Leagal?

- Was it during a hightend security level of security?

- Do I flash a PBA card?

- Do I have "connections"?

- How socially competent am I? I do deal witt these situations effectivly?

- Was I behaving suspiciously?

- Do I have any prior convictions?

- How impressive is my camera?

- Do I have any aeronautical material with me (Flightplans Charts, Approach Plates)?

- Do I have a scanner in my possession?

- How does my visual profile come accross to those that see me when photographing planes?

- How old do I appear to be?

- What kind of person to I come accross as?

- Do I appear to be educated?

- What is my gender, race and (or) ethinicity?

- Do I come accross as someone who knows the law and isn't afraid to show it?

- Am I a Terrorist?

Senga
10-13-2006, 10:38 AM
T-Bird76

Quote:

Originally Posted by SengaB

You all have seem to have forgotten my "Unauthorized Photography Case" from Newark. I wasn't even taking pix at the time and pulled over for unrelated reasons.

Taking pix is illeagal while on the NJ Turnpike. However, since I wasn't not engaging in photography at the time and simply had my camera displayed the cop cited me for "Unauthotized Photography".

People do get their Camera sand film and pix taken away and CF cards deleted in the NCY area frequently.

Senga

Senga a couple of things. Didn't the judge dismiss that ticket? I had a similar situation at ISP a few years back as many know and it was thrown out and basically laughed at by the judge. Again we have to know where we are spotting. By the looks of EWR there aren't too many public areas to spot. JFK and LGA on the other hand have lots of public places to spot. I know in the past people have had their film and CF cards taken but I haven't heard anyone within the last year or two have this happen to them while spotting.
10-13-2006, 10:57 AM
SengaB

Tommy,
Yes the Judge threw it out thank goodness. The Judge laughed at the ticket as if to say "You have got to be kidding me". It apears the case had become popular topic during coffee and lunch breaks.
Senga
10-13-2006, 08:39 PM
emshighway

Phil, what shot of a certain sign did you take a few weeks ago? Post it when you get a chance. I got a kick out of that.