U.S. Relaxes Air Travel Restrictions

whoopee!

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U.S. Relaxes Air Travel Restrictions
September 25, 2006

By JOHN HOLUSHA
Air travelers will be allowed to carry drinks bought at the airport onto planes and to have small amounts of liquids and gels in their carry-on bags, the Department of Homeland Security said today.

The new rules, which will go into effect Tuesday, allow travelers to carry liquids, gels or aerosols in containers of 3 ounces or less, as long as they all fit into a clear 1-quart plastic bag that can be screened at the security checkpoint. Drinks and other items purchased in the secure part of the airport, beyond the checkpoint, will also be allowed onto planes.

The new regulations will apply to all domestic and international flights departing from United States airports, the agency said.

The decision slightly relaxes a broad ban on liquids and gels in carry-on bags. The ban was imposed last month after British officials arrested a group of people who they said were planning to bomb airplanes flying to the United States, using liquids combined on board to form explosives.

The changes ease the “somewhat blunt measures” imposed on Aug. 10 after the arrests in Britain, said Michael Jackson, the deputy secretary of the department. He said security experts had concluded that small quantities of eye drops, lip gloss or perfume do not constitute a danger to aircraft.

The new rules appear not to affect purchases in duty-free shops, which must be packed in checked luggage for domestic travel, under Transportation Security Administration rules.

The changes, announced at a news conference today in Washington, reflect a conclusion among officials in Europe and North America that a total ban on liquids is no longer needed to ensure security. Homeland Security officials said that they expected Canada to announce similar new rules today and that some European countries were moving in the same direction.

Air travelers can still put their liquids and gels in their checked luggage to speed their passage through security checks, officials said. Carry-on bags should be simply packed and easy to inspect, to avoid slowing down lines at security checkpoints, they said.

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Still a joke and I still have to check a roller for a one night trip!!! the TSA just doesn't get it.

they'll never learn, will they?

I saw them interviewing a bunch of pilots on TV who were even like "the rule is stupid and won't prevent anything."

They are tools.


Having said that, can I bring my camera bag onboard?

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Originally Posted by mirrodie

They are tools.


Having said that, can I bring my camera bag onboard?

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You were able to bring your bag on during the ban, just no liquid and such. Funny how you can't bring water but high tech electronics, welcome aboard!

Just traveled this week Mario. Camera equipment is fine. But to echo Tommy's comments, "Don't even think of bringing on that Latte".....although I think they just lifted that ban today.

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Originally Posted by T-Bird76

Still a joke and I still have to check a roller for a one night trip!!! the TSA just doesn't get it.

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Actually we do get it and if you read some of the reports I have you would probably want more prohibited.

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Originally Posted by cancidas

they'll never learn, will they?

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Learn new ways how they want to blow up planes every day!!

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Originally Posted by mirrodie

They are tools.


Having said that, can I bring my camera bag onboard?

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You couldn't figure out you could take a camera bag on board and you call us tools. Oh, stop you make me laugh so hard.

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Originally Posted by emshighway

Actually we do get it and if you read some of the reports I have you would probably want more prohibited.

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And that would make the industry 100% safe? It's all just fluff to give the public a warm and fuzzy feeling.

The fact is that flying will never be completely safe and while the TSA does its best to create an environment that appears solid, it isn't even close. They don't have the resourses in place to do their jobs most effectively.....funding is inadequate. Until then.....roll the dice.


-Rich

Patrick Smith (author of the book "Ask the Pilot" and the Salon.com column of the same name) had this to say about the security measures in the first place:

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So what happens to this stuff? Does the bomb squad come in every evening and cart it away in steel casks? Don't be ridiculous. It's hurled into the trash. The line of reasoning goes like this: We already know these items are harmless, but we're going to take them anyway. Later, after you leave, we will dump them down the drain.

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I think he makes a very good point: if the items could be explosive, why aren't they handled more carefully, and if they're generally not going to be explosive, why ban them in the first place?

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T-Bird76 wrote:
Still a joke and I still have to check a roller for a one night trip!!! the TSA just doesn't get it.


Actually we do get it and if you read some of the reports I have you would probably want more prohibited.

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I'm sure those reports are all nice and all but you guys don't get it. Explain the following to me and still tell me you get it.

-Tell me about the vetting process for ground workers or lack there of?

-The office of the TSA Administrator has been a revolving door - four Administrators in four years.

-The GAO last spring demonstrated how bad airport screening is, with the TSA failing 21 of 21 tests.

-The Federal Security Director at Newark, as I noted in a past editorial, has no security experience, and whose career high point, according to the TSA's own website, was being the PR man for the Beach Boys. Flight 93 ring a bell?

-Why for a period of time, one of the highest ranking officials in TSA Maritime security was Norman Mineta's former press secretary?

-Why at Washington Dulles, "dozens" of illegal aliens were discovered working in secure areas?

-Why at EWR some homeless people were found on the AOA?

-Why has the TSA spent 40,000 dollars on doggy boots?

-reported by USA Today...

"...Christopher Cadorna, 25, and Benny Arcano, 27, agreed to cooperate with the government's investigation after admitting they belonged to a group of TSA screeners who stole at least $20,000 from international travelers, prosecutors said..."

-Why did El Al say no way will they let the TSA screen for their flights?

-Why have puffer machines at airports and not use them, oh that's right they've been found to be pieces of crap and don't work half the time.

-I've flown 20,000 miles in the last 90 days, how come not one of the airports I've flown through were checking bags at the gate for liquids like you guys say you might about a millions times over the airport PA? Its BS I saw plenty of people bring water on planes. Not once, large airport or small were their gate checks. Please don't say it’s random and I must have missed it, 20,000 miles in 90 days I would have seen it at least once.

Shall I go on? Btw thank you Mr. Mike Boyd for reporting a number of the above. I know you work for the TSA and I don't blame most of the frontline guys especially in your position but your leaders are inept and haven't had a clue for a long time. As for those reports, you know what NO I don't want it more restrictive! This isn't a police state, the American people understand there are certain risks when it comes to terrorism and we live with it.

If the TSA becomes more restrictive we won't have to worry about terrorism in the sky because all the airlines will be out of business because no one will fly. If you think that is out of the question then you guys really don't have a clue. The airlines are expecting a 30% drop in business travel because of the restrictions on liquids. Tell me why a female going to Chicago for a day wants to check her purse because the liquids she's carrying can't be taken aboard anymore? Those are generally the highest yielding customers for the airlines.

As for the liquids you guys knew it was a threat before the London plot was uncovered. Why didn't we ban liquids before that? That has perplexed me still to this day. The material these guys used had such a distinct smell current technology out there could have picked it up, but we don't have it in place.

I'm not directing this at you personally but at the TSA. You can't pull the wool over someone's eyes that travel as much as I do. I see it every time I fly. I wish I could capture the TSA agents at LGA; they are the most unprofessional bunch I have ever seen, not a clue!. I made the mistake once of handing a TSA agent my connecting boarding pass, nothing, they said nothing, just handed it back to me and off I went. I pointed it out to a Supervisor and they didn't care, the said they just look at my name. What BS!!!! At that point you don't have to show them your id so what's the point of looking at my name. Next time I'll just grab an old boarding pass and stroll on through... Lets get real here the TSA has done nothing to increase security at our airports, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it’s a federal job program. Maybe you guys should start listening to passengers like me instead of just coming out and saying “we get it”

Tommy,

Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

:)

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Originally Posted by T-Bird76

I've flown 20,000 miles in the last 90 days, how come not one of the airports I've flown through were checking bags at the gate for liquids like you guys say you might about a millions times over the airport PA? Its BS I saw plenty of people bring water on planes. Not once, large airport or small were their gate checks. Please don't say it’s random and I must have missed it, 20,000 miles in 90 days I would have seen it at least once.

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Well, it does happen. I flew LGA-MYR on 8/14 and TSA was checking through people's bags as we lined up for boarding. No search on the return trip out of MYR, though.

Doing the ISP-MDW shuffle today, first day of the new rules. I won't go into details, (don't want to tip off any terrorists reading NYCA) but let me say the procedures at both airports were inconsistant, and wouldn't stop me from carrying illegal liquids on board.

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You couldn't figure out you could take a camera bag on board and you call us tools.

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As I allow my glass of merlot's bouquet to manifest itself...

emshighway, I am sorry you think that couldn't figure it out. I just couldn't be bothered to sift through the inconsistently followed website your establishment has and would rather ask friends who have flown recently of their real experiences. Between my friends' experiences and comments read on flyertalk.com, I have realistic expectations. I may be a fully fledged Craftsman with miles to learn and only a few meager years of education under my decreasing beltline, but I'd think twice before posting if I were you. :wink:


T-bird already gave a play by play so I wont go into that. In fact, emshighway, since you feel so strongly, I think you have a lot of points to address and I look forward to your retort.

But I will comment on El Al. They are THE gold standard in security. They are YOUR example to follow. You are welcome to read my copy of a book on El Al by Mike Machat. Has some really exquisite drawings in it.

But if you can emulate what El Al has done, then great. My tax dollars have been well spent. If nothing else ever came of this discussion, let it be that I employ you, as a representative of the TSA, to use our tax dollars righteously.



Let me draw on our own personal experiences:


JFK-SYD- I asked the agent to hand check my 12 rolls of film since I was flying on 10 segments over the next few weeks. She refused to, saying the film speed wasnt a problem. Then I showed her a printout of your own treasured webpage and said that I could ask to have it hand checked and not put through the machine. Boy was she pissed that she had to do her job.


MIA-JFK-, Your TSA crew were busy making comments about my wife and I in Creole language as they screened us through. They were talking nonsense about a pair of green Doc Martens that I wore and paying more attention to that rather than screening. Weren't they surprised when I called them on it, as I am fluent in French and Creole. IF I recall correctly, I spoke to the supervisor ans asked, politely, "what do my green Doc Martens have to do with anything?" Very professional. :roll:


JFK-LHR TSA agent forced wife to take off her open toe shoes....I am wearing RM WILLIAMS boots. No problem, leave them on. Yet the gent in front of us had to remove his cowboy boots. So how much more contraband can a pair of my boots hold compared to her open toe mules?? Why the inconsistency?

ISP-PVD-, the good TSA folks at ISP (emshighway, you can take credit for them) found that I had a corkscrew opener in my bag and asked I leave it. Of course I obliged. I mean seriously it was the day of my engagement and I was not thinking straight for obvious reasons.

But 8 hours later, at PVD, I bought a corkscrew, I proposed, forgot about it and simply boarded with it back in PVD. I didnt even realize it til I got home. Talk about inconsistent and scary! We are talking about the same ITEM in the SAME DAY!!! RIGHT hours later.
And yes, Newsday did print my editorial about that incident.


Maybe I was wrong to use that word.

And emshighway, notice how others posting here are echoing the same sentiment. Most are talking about inconsistency.


So, in retrospect, I apologize for calling the TSA 'tools'. That was a sophomoric choice of words on my part.

Instead, based on our collective experiences, the TSA is an organization that was hired to give us the illusion of protecting us without actually doing so. Some of its employees will a) refuse to carry out duties as delineated on its uber-informative website, b) make fun of travelers to pass the time instead of screen passengers and c) will not apply consistent procedures, as noted within an 8 hour window of reference.

But since I couldn't find a single word to explain all that, all I could think of was "tools". I am very sorry.



I really don't expect a reasonable reply, since none of this is in your hands. But when you wonder why people are infuriated with the TSA, I am just another man (in a tiny country of how many million?) drawing on my own experiences.

But I do look forward to your reply to T-Birds points. I do enjoy intelligent reading.

You all make good points but let us remember this. The EL Al argument is not a good parallel. We all now how vigorous their security measures are. Pax are screened very thoroughly and are checked in many ways both in the open and not in the open. Their planes are guarded around the clock etc etc. Any thing brought on the plane is subject to a vigorous search. We in this country could never implement this for reasons of cost and practicality. The reason the TSA is in place is because they give us some sort of security without disrupting air travel or making it much more expensive. I am not saying I agree with it but take it as it is. As for professionalism, well when we encounter unprofessional gate agents or flight attendants I never hear this much ire towards them here. Sounds like we have an axe to grind with the TSA for some reason. I don't travel as much as Tommy but I have flown plenty in the last few years both domestic and internationally and I have no problem with the TSA. Give them a break, they do the most thankless job for next to nothing in pay. Unless you guys know of a way to have a high level of screening without the cost or time involved I would love to hear it.

I agree with Nick. I think agencies like the TSA is in a tight one figuring out how to balance between maintaining security, practicality and not turning away the travelling public.

Not to mention that these guys have the job of implementing an all-ecompassing airtight screening system throughout the nation in jsut a few years. Tall order.

Thoguh terror has no timeline, more training and honing of procedure should make it a reliable department in the near future.

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Originally Posted by NIKV69

A) We all now how vigorous their security measures are.

B)they give us some sort of security

C) As for professionalism, well when we encounter unprofessional gate agents or flight attendants I never hear this much ire towards them here..

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a) Israel is not the richest country in the world and yes we can improve.


b) There is a comforting thought. "some sort" of security? For the $5 per pax per leg paid, I demand more.


c) If you want to read about that I encourage you to read flyertalk That is where people talk about those issues. As for my experiences, on each and every flight I take, I send in a customer comment card. Every pro or con is mentioned, both positive and negative feedback.

Nick, honestly, I would not mind if jobs were done right. That is the problem.

And if that example that I provided, about the corkscrew, is not a GLARING example of a problem, then I don't know what is. But I will make it easy for you. Insert "box cutter" in place of corkscrew, then draw your own conclusions.


Lastly, if the TSA were doing their job well, perhaps we would not all have similar complaints. But the reality is that the complaints do not all come from one individual. Further, all I can hope is that folks such as EMShighway look for ways to improve, rather than defend their agency.

Nick the problem with the TSA isn't just a few bad apples or a few lapses here are there, its a widespread problem, go read my bullet points again and tell me that is not indicative of a organization with some pretty big problems. Phil you mention they implemented an airtight security system, where, which airport? Swiss cheese has fewer holes in it then our airport and port security. It a few years ago a teenager took a box cutter on board to show how easy it was to get it past the screeners. Why was the GAO able to get items past security 21 times? Answer me that?

Phil they've done a good job with the liquid ban turning away 30% of business travelers. Go read AA's statement on the revenue they lost because of this ban.

I'm sorry but stop sitting here defending this organization, you’re defending an organization that spent 40,000 on doggy boots, and you guys think that is acceptable? I don't. I'm not sitting here bashing them without hard fact, the facts I stated above are serious infractions that have taken place and demand a reasonable and prompt fix. As for being a thankless job, give me a break Nick, I had to but on my hip waders on for that one. No one forced these people to do this job; they get paid like you or me. If they don't like their job they can go find another one.

I personally think TSA could do a much much better job in my experince. The best team I have seen is at DCA. No discrimination, everyone same stuff right through and through unless your ticket has the sssss line across it or howver many it is which denotes prescreening. My badges from SRQ and the other airports I have em for were not good enough ID even with me in uniform either. Still had to go through the same lines and precautions whereas at TPA going through in uniform etc.... barely any security I took my wallet cell and keys out and that was it no verification of anything at all. Where as in BQN last year where I flew in uniform having just finished a trip myself the security at that airport would not let me take a pic of the 727 as I came down the stairs.

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Originally Posted by phil d

Thoguh terror has no timeline, more training and honing of procedure should make it a reliable department in the near future.

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Don't forget funds, you can't demand top notch security personnel and pay them $8 an hour.

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Israel is not the richest country in the world and yes we can improve.

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So what? Read this

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meas ... .security/

There is now way we can have this type of security for air travel for $5 a leg.

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Originally Posted by t-bird76

As for being a thankless job, give me a break Nick, I had to but on my hip waders on for that one. No one forced these people to do this job; they get paid like you or me. If they don't like their job they can go find another one.

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It's not thankless? Tommy climb out of that cubicle and serve the public for a few months like these people do. Spend 8 hours a day getting attitudes and checking peoples shoes and going through people's belongings while at the same time trying to keep our flights safe from terrorism while making $8 bucks an hour. Yea that doesn't sound too thankless to me. Sign me up.

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Originally Posted by t-bird76

Phil they've done a good job with the liquid ban turning away 30% of business travelers.

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I may not be the most seasoned business traveler but what does bringing a liquid on a plane have to do with it? Pick up your shampoo and stuff at your destination. So you can't bring any liquid on board? Who gives a ****? The FA will have plenty of water and soda for you to drink and you get your Listerine and such at your hotel or whatever. They did it for a reason, just comply with it.

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Originally Posted by NIKV69

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Originally Posted by phil d

Thoguh terror has no timeline, more training and honing of procedure should make it a reliable department in the near future.

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Don't forget funds, you can't demand top notch security personnel and pay them $8 an hour.

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Israel is not the richest country in the world and yes we can improve.

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So what? Read this

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meas ... .security/

There is now way we can have this type of security for air travel for $5 a leg.

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Originally Posted by t-bird76

As for being a thankless job, give me a break Nick, I had to but on my hip waders on for that one. No one forced these people to do this job; they get paid like you or me. If they don't like their job they can go find another one.

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It's not thankless? Tommy climb out of that cubicle and serve the public for a few months like these people do. Spend 8 hours a day getting attitudes and checking peoples shoes and going through people's belongings while at the same time trying to keep our flights safe from terrorism while making $8 bucks an hour. Yea that doesn't sound too thankless to me. Sign me up.

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Originally Posted by t-bird76

Phil they've done a good job with the liquid ban turning away 30% of business travelers.

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I may not be the most seasoned business traveler but what does bringing a liquid on a plane have to do with it? Pick up your shampoo and stuff at your destination. So you can't bring any liquid on board? Who gives a ****? The FA will have plenty of water and soda for you to drink and you get your Listerine and such at your hotel or whatever. They did it for a reason, just comply with it.

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Who gives a $hit Nick. The female who has a makeup case in her pocketbook and now has to check it. She gives a $hit when she's going to Chicago only for the day. Nick it may come as surprise to you but business travelers do care, they care a great deal. Why should you have to spend more time in the airport then you do already?

I don't expect you to understand nor do I expect people who don't fly as much as most road warriors do to even to speak about something they are totally unfamiliar with. Let me ask you this Nick when was the last time you got on a plane? The TSA has made it very difficult for many business travelers.

Lastly the airlines care a great deal, do me a favor and go look at the briefs, travel is softening again. This liquid ban cost the airlines tens of millions of dollars.

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Originally Posted by t-bird76

I don't expect you to understand nor do I expect people who don't fly as much as most road warriors do to even to speak about something they are totally unfamiliar with. Let me ask you this Nick when was the last time you got on a plane? The TSA has made it very difficult for many business travelers.

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Tommy just because you fly a lot by no means makes you an expert on traveling more so than anybody else. Your not the only one who travels on busniess, my friends father travels to Japan twice a month and other places and doesn't have any of these issues, this coming from a guy who probably travels 5 times the miles you do. The TSA has a job to do, let them do it. When is the last time I got a plane? Well From June 2002 to Dec 2004 I flew to Brazil 5 times. Vegas 3 times and a few short hops in between that. Not quite your 100,000 miles but pretty close. Do you really think some woman not having her lipstick is a hardship when it comes to safety? Get real. The TSA is not doing anything to biz travelers. They are trying to keep our skies safe any way they can and just because some "road warriors" get inconvenienced doesn't mean a God damn thing. The skies are not reserved for you just because you travel a lot. There are other people that travel Tommy and the TSA or our Government is doing the best they can do to keep them safe as well.

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Originally Posted by "NIKV69

Tommy just because you fly a lot by no means makes you an expert on traveling more so than anybody else.

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So now what, is there a benchmark that Tbird needs in order to be an expert? :roll: C'mon now.


Nick, you are arguing cnn articles whereas I put more weight into the bbc. Perhaps you are happy to settle with what is the current state of affairs, thats fine. But it's ridiculous for you to dismiss the thoughts and opinions of anyone else without having seen the facets of the operations yourself, on a more than infrequent basis.

I'm for paying more if the outcome is better security with quality, qualified workers. Put in iris registration capabilities, the technology has been around for eons. DO what it takes.

But if you are going to sit there and see my specific examples I stated and dismiss them, then clearly you are not arguing for any reason than just to argue.



meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Nick if you want to provide some fact to your statements I'll continue this debate in a civil manner. I've put up some hard facts but you choose to go on in a rant.

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Originally Posted by mirrodie

So now what, is there a benchmark that Tbird needs in order to be an expert? C'mon now.

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Not at all but he is insinuating that just because someone doesn't fly as much as he does their opinion or knowledge means nothing and this is simply not true.

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Originally Posted by mirrodie

Nick, you are arguing cnn articles whereas I put more weight into the bbc.

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You missed the point completely Mario, the CNN article was used to document how EL AL screens it Pax and guards it planes around the clock not to mention the hundreds of other measures they use, none of which can be used in the US. The sheer volume of flights would make this impossible not even mentioning cost. This is why EL AL is not a fair comparison to the TSA. EL AL flies 3 million pax a year. How people fly in the US a year?

It's impossible for that level of security here.

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Originally Posted by t-bird76

Nick if you want to provide some fact to your statements I'll continue this debate in a civil manner. I've put up some hard facts but you choose to go on in a rant.

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Not a rant at all, I am not going to sit here and say the TSA is perfect. That is not the case. I just disagree with the fact that you think they are a total joke. I mean since they have been in existence we haven't had any attacks so they can't be totally useless. If you have an axe to grind for the fact that some woman may be without her lipstick or that some "road warriors" have been inconvenienced well I will say this, at the moment all we have is the TSA between us and a safe flight. So until the improvements you feel are necessary are made by the TSA or a new agency we should be a little more tolerant and cooperative.

not entirely true four letters and one word F.F.D.O. program thats the last defense!

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Originally Posted by hiss srq

not entirely true four letters and one word F.F.D.O. program thats the last defense!

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I am all for arming all pilots. That coupled with the cockpit doors and good screening solves the problem.

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Originally Posted by NIKV69

IT's impossible for that level of security here.

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NIck, I got the point comepletely. So I have to settle for what we have because we have so many flights. Great excuse.

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Originally Posted by INTENSS

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Originally Posted by emshighway

Actually we do get it and if you read some of the reports I have you would probably want more prohibited.

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And that would make the industry 100% safe? It's all just fluff to give the public a warm and fuzzy feeling.

The fact is that flying will never be completely safe and while the TSA does its best to create an environment that appears solid, it isn't even close. They don't have the resources in place to do their jobs most effectively.....funding is inadequate. Until then.....roll the dice.


-Rich

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Not going to be able to answer everything in one post.

Nothing can be 100% safe. Much may appear as smoke and mirrors. The agency is only five years old while other agencies are hundreds. Resources, funding are low while politics and cronyism is high. There are many, many people who try to do the right thing. We shake out heads at some of the procedures also. Some we can understand based on the background we receive.

If you want to play the "let's beat up on the TSA guy" it is easy to get in touch with. Try it face to face.

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Originally Posted by pgengler

Patrick Smith (author of the book "Ask the Pilot" and the Salon.com column of the same name) had this to say about the security measures in the first place:

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So what happens to this stuff? Does the bomb squad come in every evening and cart it away in steel casks? Don't be ridiculous. It's hurled into the trash. The line of reasoning goes like this: We already know these items are harmless, but we're going to take them anyway. Later, after you leave, we will dump them down the drain.

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I think he makes a very good point: if the items could be explosive, why aren't they handled more carefully, and if they're generally not going to be explosive, why ban them in the first place?

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Well since you can't read the whole article it is hard to answer. How about you try again.

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Originally Posted by emshighway

If you want to play the "let's beat up on the TSA guy" it is easy to get in touch with. Try it face to face.

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in touch with.....who? Anyway, I just went to the start of the thread and perused it. We were discussing the organization's pitfalls when you seem to have personalized this and made it seem as if its 'them against the TSA guy', capping it off with what can be miscontrued as perhaps a machismo sophomoric response of 'try it face to face.'

Now, let me be the first to say that I called the TSA 'tools'. Not you, the TSA. That struck a nerve with you. Fine. I then retracted that statement and fully explained WHY I said that. Now perhaps you can explain why we are wrong.

Since perhaps you seem to think we are wrong and do not know anything that we are talking about, having drawn only on our experiences, then may I suggest that you educate us and show us how we are wrong.

I challenge you to try and actually discuss the points raised, rather than tack tangential potshots at random posters here. And 'not being able to answer everything' is a cop out.

So may I suggest the following... T-bird, in his 3rd post in this thread, delineated many bulleted points. Why don't you use that one post as a template, reference point or basis for discussion.

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Originally Posted by T-Bird76

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I'm sure those reports are all nice and all but you guys don't get it. Explain the following to me and still tell me you get it.

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Of course you are an expert and get everything?

I can see you took a trip to Flyertalk.com to gather some argue points since it is obvious you didn't think of these yourself.

[quote:dc7b6]Tell me about the vetting process for ground workers or lack there of?

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There actually is a process starting soon. We don't like the current situation.

The airport is responsible for running a background for those with SIDA access. There will be random screening of employees at access doors.

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The office of the TSA Administrator has been a revolving door - four Administrators in four years.

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Would you want the job? It is an extremely hard job where congress tells you what you can do then bashes you when you do it.

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The GAO last spring demonstrated how bad airport screening is, with the TSA failing 21 of 21 tests.

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Did you read the whole report? I would bet not. Having a battery, watch and some wire can make a bomb but having them in a bag doesn't make it a bomb.

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The Federal Security Director at Newark, as I noted in a past editorial, has no security experience, and whose career high point, according to the TSA's own website, was being the PR man for the Beach Boys. Flight 93 ring a bell?

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At Newark you need a PR man. A good manager surrounds himself with experienced personnel. Hopefully he will do what needs to be done.

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Why for a period of time, one of the highest ranking officials in TSA Maritime security was Norman Mineta's former press secretary?

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It is called cronyism. Have you looked at the Bush administration? :roll:

When you are told to get a brand new agency up and running in months you grab who you think can do a job.

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Why at Washington Dulles, "dozens" of illegal aliens were discovered working in secure areas?

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Were they employed by the TSA? It is the airports responsibility to run the backgrounds. How do you think they were found?

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-Why at EWR some homeless people were found on the AOA?

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Apparently the Port Authority wasn't doing their jobs. It is the Port Authority's responsibility not the TSA.

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-Why has the TSA spent 40,000 dollars on doggy boots?

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The was DHS. TSA is only one of 22 departments. None of the dogs at the WTC had boots. They wanted to make sure the dogs had boots.

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"...Christopher Cadorna, 25, and Benny Arcano, 27, agreed to cooperate with the government's investigation after admitting they belonged to a group of TSA screeners who stole at least $20,000 from international travelers, prosecutors said..."

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How many crooked cops, priest, school officials are there? It happens, we go after these idiots and want them busted as much as anyone else.

There has always been a problem with items "disappearing" from baggage. This has been going on well before the TSA. Simple answer, it shouldn't happen.

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-Why did El Al say no way will they let the TSA screen for their flights?

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That's not exactly true. try research instead of just copying and pasting.

El Al wanted to screen their own bags, they use TSA equipment. True the settings are stricter than ours but it's their planes.

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-Why have puffer machines at airports and not use them, oh that's right they've been found to be pieces of crap and don't work half the time.

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TSA doesn't build the puffers. There are a very few companies who do so there are slim pickings. Congress wants them out at the checkpoints, the lab advises they are not the best they can be, this is ignored by congress and they go out. TSA pushed for the stop on new deployments until such time as the companies can show they will perform according to TSA specs. Also it isn't that they don't work. The problem is the analyize times. Right now they take too long and they slow the checkpoint down. Read the articles for the correct information.

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-I've flown 20,000 miles in the last 90 days, how come not one of the airports I've flown through were checking bags at the gate for liquids like you guys say you might about a millions times over the airport PA? Its BS I saw plenty of people bring water on planes. Not once, large airport or small were their gate checks. Please don't say it’s random and I must have missed it, 20,000 miles in 90 days I would have seen it at least once.

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AM I SUPPOSE TO BE IMPRESSED? It is simple, there is enough staff. What is more important, getting you the checkpoint or prevent you from taking water you bought at the airport on the clean side of the checkpoint. I can guarentee it is being done. Not a 100% as Washington first wanted but on a random bases as the FSDs recommended as not to bring the system to a halt.

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Shall I go on? Btw thank you Mr. Mike Boyd for reporting a number of the above. I know you work for the TSA and I don't blame most of the frontline guys especially in your position but your leaders are inept and haven't had a clue for a long time. As for those reports, you know what NO I don't want it more restrictive! This isn't a police state, the American people understand there are certain risks when it comes to terrorism and we live with it.

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Boy I heard patriotic music behind that part.

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If the TSA becomes more restrictive we won't have to worry about terrorism in the sky because all the airlines will be out of business because no one will fly. If you think that is out of the question then you guys really don't have a clue. The airlines are expecting a 30% drop in business travel because of the restrictions on liquids. Tell me why a female going to Chicago for a day wants to check her purse because the liquids she's carrying can't be taken aboard anymore? Those are generally the highest yielding customers for the airlines.

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Really, I've seen articles and FAA reports that passengers loads are up. There was one a little while ago saying the three NYC area airports had the most they ever had.

I have been to Chicago, why would anyone want to go there? :P

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As for the liquids you guys knew it was a threat before the London plot was uncovered. Why didn't we ban liquids before that? That has perplexed me still to this day. The material these guys used had such a distinct smell current technology out there could have picked it up, but we don't have it in place.

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Simple answer, $$$ and Congress, Congress, Congress. There also has to be adjustments on the present risk. It is a moving target. While we would like to be more proactive, I guess they are stuck in the reactive mode.

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I'm not directing this at you personally but at the TSA. You can't pull the wool over someone's eyes that travel as much as I do. I see it every time I fly. I wish I could capture the TSA agents at LGA; they are the most unprofessional bunch I have ever seen, not a clue!. I made the mistake once of handing a TSA agent my connecting boarding pass, nothing, they said nothing, just handed it back to me and off I went. I pointed it out to a Supervisor and they didn't care, the said they just look at my name. What BS!!!! At that point you don't have to show them your id so what's the point of looking at my name. Next time I'll just grab an old boarding pass and stroll on through... Lets get real here the TSA has done nothing to increase security at our airports, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it’s a federal job program.

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They are looking to see if the boarding pass has the selectee mark. The airline contracted ticket checkers are responsible for checking the boarding passes. This may change. It is politics with the airlines. This proves that you are going on uneducated observation for your arguements.

There are a lot of behind the scene programs that definetly make a difference. Making a remark that TSA hasn't increased the security is just a jab that you can't prove.

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Maybe you guys should start listening to passengers like me instead of just coming out and saying “we get it”

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[/quote:dc7b6]

Am I suppose to be kneeling to you now?? I am tired of the entitled passenger who thinks they are all knowing. You feel that the doors should open wide, the music sound and rose pedals dropped at your feet. Say hello to all your fellow basher friendsfor me at flyertalk.com :roll:

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Originally Posted by moose135

Doing the ISP-MDW shuffle today, first day of the new rules. I won't go into details, (don't want to tip off any terrorists reading NYCA) but let me say the procedures at both airports were inconsistant, and wouldn't stop me from carrying illegal liquids on board.

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Don't you think inconsistency is a good thing? If you don't know what is going to be checked you can't prepare for it.

Not saying total inconsistency is right. It is hard to have around 450 airports to run exactly the same and 45,000 people act exactly the same.

Of course it makes sense to hire a PR guy as the supervisor at Newark. The TSA is all about giving the appearance of security while not actually doing anything, not to mention wasting billions and billions of dollars annually.

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Originally Posted by mirrodie

[quote:837ba]You couldn't figure out you could take a camera bag on board and you call us tools.

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As I allow my glass of merlot's bouquet to manifest itself...

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emshighway, I am sorry you think that couldn't figure it out. I just couldn't be bothered to sift through the inconsistently followed website your establishment has and would rather ask friends who have flown recently of their real experiences. Between my friends' experiences and comments read on flyertalk.com, I have realistic expectations. I may be a fully fledged Craftsman with miles to learn and only a few meager years of education under my decreasing beltline, but I'd think twice before posting if I were you. :wink:

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Should I take this as a threat? Bring it. I am conveying my views from another side and trying to convey information. I'm sure you would rather have be be silent so you can spread your rhetoric without response. I knew you had to be one of those flyertalers, the same old rhetoric is easy to spot.

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T-bird already gave a play by play so I wont go into that. In fact, emshighway, since you feel so strongly, I think you have a lot of points to address and I look forward to your retort.

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I try to convey some of the information (whether I agree or not with it). I do not appreciate the childish comments like "they are tools" when I bust my butt to make the experience better and the throughput quicker for the passengers (ask Phil).

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But I will comment on El Al. They are THE gold standard in security. They are YOUR example to follow. You are welcome to read my copy of a book on El Al by Mike Machat. Has some really exquisite drawings in it.

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You are right, but they didn't do it overnight and I'm sure they didn't have to deal with the likes of the US Congress. Their regulations are stricter than ours. Do you really want them?

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But if you can emulate what El Al has done, then great. My tax dollars have been well spent. If nothing else ever came of this discussion, let it be that I employ you, as a representative of the TSA, to use our tax dollars righteously.

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I pay taxes also or did you forget that? I too want the best for my money. The government wants to contract everything out (IT, HR, Payroll, ETC), talk about waste of money.


Let me draw on our own personal experiences:

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JFK-SYD- I asked the agent to hand check my 12 rolls of film since I was flying on 10 segments over the next few weeks. She refused to, saying the film speed wasnt a problem. Then I showed her a printout of your own treasured webpage and said that I could ask to have it hand checked and not put through the machine. Boy was she pissed that she had to do her job.

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Was it 800 or over? She might have been right.

Take a name and complain.

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MIA-JFK-, Your TSA crew were busy making comments about my wife and I in Creole language as they screened us through. They were talking nonsense about a pair of green Doc Martens that I wore and paying more attention to that rather than screening. Weren't they surprised when I called them on it, as I am fluent in French and Creole. IF I recall correctly, I spoke to the supervisor ans asked, politely, "what do my green Doc Martens have to do with anything?" Very professional. :roll:

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Take names and complain, it is your right.

So they made a little joke, stop the presses and fire everyone. Jokes in this situation could be a stress release. After hours of people taking out the frustrations on you, yelling, spitting and even assaulting you a little joke could have been a little release.

Cops, fire fighters and paramedics have the sickest sense of humors around. It is a defensive response. Is it always right, no but sometimes it happens.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WEARING GREEN DOCS FOR? :shock:

I probably would have laughed also.

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JFK-LHR TSA agent forced wife to take off her open toe shoes....I am wearing RM WILLIAMS boots. No problem, leave them on. Yet the gent in front of us had to remove his cowboy boots. So how much more contraband can a pair of my boots hold compared to her open toe mules?? Why the inconsistency?

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Most cowboy boots contain a steel shank which will set the metal detector off. So would you rather have him just remove them knowing they are going to alarm or let him waste your time by going through then ringing and have to stop the line to take them off? This must be old since all shoes come off now. Do I agree with this, no, but since most shoes have shanks having everyone take their shoes off actually speeds up the line.

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ISP-PVD-, the good TSA folks at ISP (emshighway, you can take credit for them) found that I had a corkscrew opener in my bag and asked I leave it. Of course I obliged. I mean seriously it was the day of my engagement and I was not thinking straight for obvious reasons.

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Congrats

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But 8 hours later, at PVD, I bought a corkscrew, I proposed, forgot about it and simply boarded with it back in PVD. I didnt even realize it til I got home. Talk about inconsistent and scary! We are talking about the same ITEM in the SAME DAY!!! RIGHT hours later.
And yes, Newsday did print my editorial about that incident.

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Corkscrews are not prohibited. Don't know when this happen but is it possible there was a small knife on the first for removing the wrapper? Just speculating.

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Maybe I was wrong to use that word.

And emshighway, notice how others posting here are echoing the same sentiment. Most are talking about inconsistency.

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There are good and bad to inconsistency. Not everything is predictable. As I stated before having over 450 areas with 45000 people doing exactly the same thing is rough. Should it be tighter, yes.

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So, in retrospect, I apologize for calling the TSA 'tools'. That was a sophomoric choice of words on my part.

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I apologize for jumping on you about it but when you spend months busting your butt trying to make your life easier and get you through the checkpoints faster than come home and crank the website up and get called a tool (I know, not personally, but at my kind) I get a little pissed.

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Instead, based on our collective experiences, the TSA is an organization that was hired to give us the illusion of protecting us without actually doing so. Some of its employees will

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Not just the illusion but that is part of it.

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a) refuse to carry out duties as delineated on its uber-informative website,

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I don't like the website either. Website is not the SOP and sometimes isn't updated as quick as it should be.

They should be reported and disciplined if they don't follow the SOP.

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b) make fun of travelers to pass the time instead of screen passengers and

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They should be drawn and quartered!!! Already answered this.

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c) will not apply consistent procedures, as noted within an 8 hour window of reference.

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Again, getting 450 area and 45000 people to do the exact same thing is rough but should be tighter.

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But since I couldn't find a single word to explain all that, all I could think of was "tools". I am very sorry.

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We are tools of what congress wants us to do. We are punching bags for persons who don't like being inconvenienced.

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I really don't expect a reasonable reply, since none of this is in your hands. But when you wonder why people are infuriated with the TSA, I am just another man (in a tiny country of how many million?) drawing on my own experiences.

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[/quote:837ba]

I tried to give reasonable replies but had to throw some jabs. Admit there is some bias and frustration in your perception of the TSA.

Look at other government worker... DMV!!!! Are they really any different? Are they the best? Maybe not but remember the old saying "you get what you pay for" :shock:

There are some of us who are trying to do the right thing. There are problems and hopefully they work themselves out.

I actually didn't come on NYCA to fight, I actually am trying to help make spotting easier by bringing people together and getting the word out.

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Originally Posted by T-Bird76

Nick the problem with the TSA isn't just a few bad apples or a few lapses here are there, its a widespread problem, go read my bullet points again and tell me that is not indicative of a organization with some pretty big problems. Phil you mention they implemented an airtight security system, where, which airport? Swiss cheese has fewer holes in it then our airport and port security. It a few years ago a teenager took a box cutter on board to show how easy it was to get it past the screeners. Why was the GAO able to get items past security 21 times? Answer me that?

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Repeating yourselves. Security of the airport is actually the airport's responsibility. The TSA inspects for adherence of Federal Regulations.

Yes, a few years ago. How old is the TSA? Nothing is done overnight (yes, in the scheme of the government a few years is overnight)

[quote:f1627]Phil they've done a good job with the liquid ban turning away 30% of business travelers. Go read AA's statement on the revenue they lost because of this ban.

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Checked baggage is up 35%. Isn't it easier for AA to say it is TSA's fault then their bad management.

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I'm sorry but stop sitting here defending this organization, you’re defending an organization that spent 40,000 on doggy boots

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Again, that was DHS and the dogs really needed them.

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, and you guys think that is acceptable? I don't. I'm not sitting here bashing them without hard fact, the facts I stated above are serious infractions that have taken place and demand a reasonable and prompt fix.

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And your fix would be?

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As for being a thankless job, give me a break Nick, I had to but on my hip waders on for that one. No one forced these people to do this job; they get paid like you or me. If they don't like their job they can go find another one.

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[/quote:f1627]

I knew this was going to be here somewhere. Have you read anything of the job market. For some they are forced to do the job. But they can quit and you can pay for their welfare checks.

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The TSA has made it very difficult for many business travelers.

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Ah, yes we sit around saying "let's get the business traveler" Congress has imposed the measures.

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Lastly the airlines care a great deal, do me a favor and go look at the briefs, travel is softening again. This liquid ban cost the airlines tens of millions of dollars.

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Travel is naturally softens at this time of year. What a perfect time to use this as a negative fact when it occurs every year. What are you going to say during the holidays when it picks up again?

Hmm, checked baggage is up 35%. Go over the alloted amount or poundage and you pay the airlines. Who is actually making out on the ban? Perhaps, the airlines?

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Originally Posted by NIKV69

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Originally Posted by hiss srq

not entirely true four letters and one word F.F.D.O. program thats the last defense!

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I am all for arming all pilots. That coupled with the cockpit doors and good screening solves the problem.

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A multi layered system.

OK, the moderators can now send their PMs and emails on multi-replies. Sorry, there was no way I was going to reply to all this in one post.

Have a good night.