http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/27/plane.crash/index.html
Comair RJ down at Blue Grass Airport - Lexington, KY....
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/27/plane.crash/index.html
Comair RJ down at Blue Grass Airport - Lexington, KY....
And the US was having a good year thus far too. watching cnn now :(
Very sad news indeed, Mario is right the U.S was on such a good safety run lately.
We've been in an unprecedented era of safety in US airline flight over the past several years. This is the worst crash since Flight 587 in 2001, which was quite a bit worse than this.Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrodie
Look like Josh has a shot of the crashed plane in better days.
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5640604
Thoughts are with the families of those lost.
Some reports are saying the plane may have taken off from the wrong runway.
Quote:
The crash marks the end of what has been called the "safest period in aviation history" in the United States. There has not been a major crash since Nov. 12, 2001, when American Airlines Flight 587 plunged into a residential neighborhood in Queens, N.Y., killing 265 people, including five on the ground.
On Jan. 8, 2003, an Air Midwest commuter plane crashed on takeoff at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport, killing all 21 aboard.
Last December, a seaplane operated by Chalk's Ocean Airways crashed off Miami Beach when its right wing separated from the fuselage shortly after takeoff, killing the 18 passengers and two crew members. That plane, a Grumman G-73 Turbo Mallard, was built in 1947 and modified significantly in 1979.
The NTSB's last record of a CRJ crash was on November 21, 2004, when a China Eastern-Yunnan Airlines Bombardier crashed shortly after takeoff. The 6 crew members and 47 passengers on the CRJ-200 were killed, and there were two fatalities on the ground.
Runway 26/8 is 3501ft
Runway 4/22 is 7002ft
They are now leaning to this is a strong possibility the plane took off on the shorter runway RWY26. After looking at my charts I can see how this could easily happen if you are not paying attention.
Senga
Mike-
What defines a major crash? Because the commuter ones are just as bad and people died in those too.
But, looking back it is true we have not had a huge incident since the Airbus crash on United States Soil.
Thats 5 yrs of flying safety, extremely remarkable one must admit!
Also, it seems everyone survived the impact of the crash but later died in the fire, that has to be horrible to know if it is true.
Heard reports two of the passengers had just gotten married and were on their way to a honeymoon.
Rest in Peace to all the victims.
Alex
Just woke up to hear the news; it's very sad.
Rest In Peace all of those lost onboard. Hopefully we'll be able to find out some news from the First Officer... And as Senga did, I checked the KLEX chart and it's pretty sad how the mistake could be made :(
[quote=Alex T][/quote:82c59]Quote:
Originally Posted by "Midnight Mike":82c59
I am not sure? I would think that a major crash would result in a loss of life & equipment, I will ask the FAA if they have any answers.
I got off my flight in Houston and Idle told me, my jaw dropped, god bless and rest in peace to all of those involved. It is weird how they happen in groups though.
The plane did in-fact take off from the wrong runway and there have been
complaints in the past about confusing the two runways on takeoffs. In
the past pilot have had clearance for departure and takeoff and were on
the wrong runway. One pilot wrote a report that I am aware of saying
that there should be a special advisory as in some other airports to check
compass upon lineup to make sure this exact thing does not
happen.....because it almost happened to them!
Cut an dry, pilots were up early.....probably the only aircraft moving at
the airport at the time and probably had clearance as they were taxing on
the ramp! Only a year will tell us how right the comments are when the
final report Finlay comes out. (LOTS OF SPECULATION fed By LOTS of
alcohol from a man that has not had a drink since a great night out with
my good friend Nick(amongst others))
I came across that same report today, Fred. Looking at the chart, I can see where they could line up on the wrong runway. One report I saw said 2 RJs departed shortly before this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derf
I'm wondering about the runway lights. The reports all said it was an unlighted runway. Looking at the AirNav page for LEX, it shows runway lights on 8/26, but says they are out of service indefinitely. If so, how do these guys continue take off down a dark runway?
It's been a hundred years since I've flown, but I still remember that one of the things you do before pushing up the throttles is to check your compass/HSI to see that it matches runway heading - not so much to see if you are on the correct runway, but to see that your instruments are correct. If my HSI was 40 degrees off Rwy heading, I might think twice before launching into the darkness.
I'm sure there's more to the story regarding the runway. There might have been enough light that runway lights weren't needed. Besides the victims families I truly feel bad for the surviving FO who if in-fact did take off from the wrong runway will have to live with the fact he did. This just really goes to show you how in just a blink of an eye your life can be cut short. I travel over 100,000 miles a year and hardly think that this stuff can happen, today's event was a sobering moment for me.
Wanna see more evidence how sick and twisted this country's priorities are.
Just punch up yahoo.com
Top headline:
"Plunging necklines and halter tops popular among female Emmy attendees.» View photos"
Shallow disrespectful bastards!
I learned an AirTran First Officer was one of the dead on the flight, he was commuting to ATL to work on an afetrnoon flight for AirTran.:(
Alex
The problem is since we're aviation fanatics, this is big news to us. For most people, this is one more news item - if it doesn't effect them personally, most likely when they heard the news reports they thought "That's terrible!" and went on about their business.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingColors
Just looking at this diagram from my jepp charts shows that those 2 runways could easily be confused. It doesn't help that there is one Taxiway- only (A) that leas to the top of both runways. Not A-1 B-2 etc.
http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/lex.jpg
Senga
Fayette County Coroner Gary Ginn said “Most of the injuries are going to be due to fire-related deaths.”
Injuries due to fire-related deaths? I can imagine the doctor's diagnosis now:
Patient: So what's wrong with me doc?
Doctor: Well it appears you died in a fire.
Patient: That sucks. That would explain how I got injured.
I think it's very sad that this accident happened. It sounds like some people involved with being a little lax and not paying attention. The rwy lights should have been operable, too.
I'm no pilot, but looking at the Jepp chart posted, how does one confuse RWY26 with 22. If you're taxiing to 22, don't you say to yourself "OK, I'm going to cross the threashold of one runway before I reach my assigned one". And what was the towers role in all of this? Shouldn't they have noticed that the RJ was rolling on the wrong RWY?
To me it just seems like these lives were "unecessarily" lost because of a stupid mistake made by one or two people who weren't on top of their game.
There should be some sort of "checklist" in place to ensure that a plane is using the proper runway, especially in smaller airports where these RJs are sometimes the only planes that fly in and out...
When I was flying down at the airfield here this summer for a pre-UPT, UPT style screening program, even though we used the exact same runway every time, under VFR conditions, we'd still make sure our nose was pointed in the right compass direction before taking-off. In fact we'd do a ton of things before takeoff to ensure that just about every instrument was working properly.
My IP, who's a civilian dude, who used to do some flying for Continental Express said that a lot of the stuff they made us do here was because we were all pretty much new to flying, and because we were flying in the military. He was saying that we have some of the most strict checklists, and that when he was flying commercially they didn't do half the stuff that both we (and active duty military pilots) were required to do...
So Moose, maybe there's a gap in between military and civilian procedures?
Anyway, I hope the F/O makes it out of this ok, and may the people who died on the plane RIP.
I dont know if he'd want me to mention his name, but a well known Anet photographer was supposed to be on that plane.
You always do a compass check upon geting her lined up on the runway or at least I do. Let us not be too fast to bash the flight crew because many factors are involved. No one crash is attirbuted to a single thing though the NTSB and FAA like to make you and themselves think it. It is a series of events that caused it, low crew rest time, trying to make the off time, maybe a missprint in NOTAM's there are soooooo many factors involved in this stuff. The NTSB will print up a crash report that says PILOT ERROR soo fast but in that there is always a few factors that actually led to the incident but the final one was pilot error.
So what actually CAUSED the crash? I assume the plane got airborne and the engines failed/stalled due to the shortness of the runway? I'm not technically savvy, but what led to the crash if an aircraft takes off on too short of a runway?
Yeah, I assume a stall based on not enough runway to gain sufficient speed.
Engins would not have stalled, it would be an aerodynamic stall otherwise known as a loss of lift. It is entirely possible that the plane never even made it off the runway or did just barely and clipped somthing that brought her back down namely a tree maybe. It reminded me immediately of the NW MD-80 many years ago when I heard about it. I really feel for all those involved. On a side note Scarey Mary is already at it on the Communist News Network. (CNN)Quote:
Originally Posted by RDU-JFK
That's a common misconception - the engines "stalled", when in fact the wing stalled. Most likely scenario, they go charging off into the darkness, and suddenly realize the end of the runway is coming up a lot sooner then they expected. It's too late to try to stop, so you pull it off, hoping it will fly. It does for a short time, probably in ground effect, but the slow speed and little or no climb rate doesn't allow you to clear the fence at the end of the runway, and trying to pull the nose up further causes the wing to stall, losing lift and making a sudden return to Earth. Remember, gravity wins every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RDU-JFK
This may sound way too geeky, (or maybe a little strange) but last night I downloaded a CRJ-200 for MS Flight Sim 2004 and tried taking off from Rwy 26. No matter what I did, when using a normal takeoff (brake-release, push up the power, and make a normal rotation & climbout) I hit the trees at the end of the runway. Rotating early caused me to mush along in ground effect, skip across the grass & hit the trees. Only when I tried a "short field" takeoff - hold the brakes, let the power spool up before moving, and make a steeper climb at lower airspeed, was I able to get airborne safely.
Question, were you firewalled when you released the brakes?? did you drop the flaps at 80KTS and how far off were the throttles from the calculated powersetting for the normal runway.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
Well, it was around midnight when I was doing this, so I didn't get into figuring out power settings and all. I did let the engines spool up to 100+% before releasing brakes, but I had flaps down throughout the run - that's what I remember of short field procedures back in the day. On my normal takeoff attempts, I did push the power up to 100%, although I did that as I started the roll, so they were still spooling up as I was moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derf
Very cool!Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
That's way cool Moose!
AAH another flight simmer.
John....GO into the aircraft.cfg config file for your CRJ and change the following (similar) parameters. "Search for static thrust" and increase it to 120000
This one is for a EMB-145
[TurbineEngineData]
fuel_flow_gain=0.002
inlet_area=6.415
rated_N2_rpm=29920.000
static_thrust=7612.735
afterburner_available=0
reverser_available=1
You shouldn't have a problem on Runway 26 anymore......
Flaps? Who needs them? Breaks? You will!
Don't forget to copy your cfg file
Senga
When I would spend time in the old Eastern 727, we would take off from general aviation airports and when we were very marginal as in....stick shaker screaming like crazy to get clear of the runway on the very last inch of overrun....I would get some extra leeway and a good 10-20knots if I were to wait on the flaps....I found that I could go from 0-25 flaps in the same time I would be rotating if I did it on the crosscheck call...80knots, Slam them down and be ready to pull..... Check it out, it works well..... but all of this is when you know you are on a smaller runway than you should be.
I sure feel bad for the F/O.....if he does survive, he will wish he was dead for a very long time. He is going to need Lots of help and lots of support.
so sad
If those engines could really do that, Rutan would have lost the X-prize in a hearbeat! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SengaB
I feel bad for the F/O as well, if he was the PF well than he will more than likely wish that he was dead. My philosphy is that if he was the PNF and he pulls through enough to be able to return to flight status he will actually become much more hireable in a sense because most pilots that have an accident and walk away from it etc............ become much more aware pilots, they learn alot more and become super super observant in the longrun. That is someone you want in your flight department for sure. Humans make mistakes in life and that is that. Unfortuneately this mistake cost many lives that should not have been but though he would be an accountable party in this incident he is alive and I am sure that it will always remain a fresh thought in his head for next time. I know this accident has taught me a valueable lesson .
If the FO does in fact survive I think this guy must be being saved for something very Important. I read this morning a few years ago he was having a blow out fight with his then wife (now ex-wife) at their Margate, Florida home when she pulled out a gun and shot him in the stomach at point blank range. She was arrested for attempted murder. I personally believe to survive these two events only a few years apart is more than co-incidence. He his still on this earth for a reason. BTW don't know if some of you saw this but the FO and FA where JFK based, although the Captain was CVG based.
Regards
LGA777
Wow Ron, that's amazing. Lucky sonofabitch.
I keep seeing news reports that these pilots were "experienced," yet no details have been released about what they did before their employment at Comair or how many hours they actually had in type. I know that the commuters have taken alot of people with low times and who come from "pilot factory" sort of academies where the emphasis is more on systems than old-fashioned pilotage skills, and taking off on the wrong runway is obviously a mistake in pilotage. i.e. situational awareness, not in systems. Anyone know more on the backgrounds of these guys? Were either of them career-changer types from the Comair Academy (which I once visited and considered attending)? While of course it's very sad all around, as a consumer of airline services, a/k/a a paying passenger, I find it appallingly fascinating that 2 qualified professionals could make such a catastrophic error.
They released some info on both pilots yesterday, both had many years behind the stick of the CRJ and proper training. Sadly the pilots will more then likely get blamed for being on the wrong runway.
Couple of things here - after the AF Concorde crash, I tried to fly it losing engines 1 and 2 at rotation. It mushed around at a very high AOA for a while before going down.
It's a fairly well-known performance characteristic of the CRJ that it has great second-segment climb performance thanks to the powerful engines, but takes forever to get off the ground because there are no slats. CRJs depart off of 5200' runway 33 at DCA all the time - I'll have to pay attention the next time I go out to see rotation points.
Even if the FO was the PNF, it's still his responsibility to point out to the PF that they're on the wrong runway. Not to mention that runway 26 was 1.) unlit, 2.) not ILS marked, and 3.) you can tell when you look down the thing if a runway is 3500' or 7000'! I suppose it's redundant to mention the 60' high numbers....
Does Comair do the "both pilots push the throttles together" thing?
Every accident is always the result of a number of failures linked together, but the final link in this chain does appear to be pilot error. Every accident, though, provides an opportunity to learn and change procedures. Out of this one, we'll probably see more improvements to CRM, possibly with a verification between the PF and the PNF that they're on the correct runway, and maybe even an ATC restriction as to when airplanes can be cleared for takeoff. I'm wondering if this was one of those situations where, on an empty field, the aircraft was cleared for takeoff pretty much upon leaving the apron area.