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This has obviously been a hot topic here in my office. A quick poll of pilots I have spoken to reflect hiss's statement. They all check the compass heading before gunning the throttles.
Again to reinforce the crew's COMPLACENCY, Hmmm Runway lights are not on! HELLO! Maybe you want to recheck some things????
I'm also a member of an air force forum, more specifically an Air Force Academy current cadets and graduates forum. Many, if not most, of the graduates on the forum, are pilots, some who are even retired with thousands of hours.
The general consensus among all of them, especially the cargo guys who fly into non-familiar and smaller airports, and do a lot of night and NVG flying, is that everytime you line up, you double check your compass with the runway heading, and if the two don't match up you knock-off the takeoff. Not to also mention the fact that as a pilot you should have enough situational awareness to realize that you were on the wrong runway, especially given the fact that the runway lights were off at that hour of the morning...
There's also a controller on there, who said that the controller should have observed the aircraft on the wrong runway, and alerted the crew to that fact...
So while ultimately, it appears the crash was the result of poor crew management and decisions, it may have been prevented if the controller had been more alert of the situation...
It's just a shame that all those on board could still be alive if it wasn't for some poor decisions made that morning...
As a fan of aviation, who believes most aircrew are overworked and underappreciated, I feel bad for the people of Comair and Delta about this. But as a consumer of airline services, a/k/a a paying passenger, this is very scary stuff and makes me hopping mad. For whatever reason, distraction, overconfidence, confusion, etc., these guys made a preventable mistake that cost innocent people their lives. The controller cleared them to the correct runway, the crew acknowledged it, and then they barreled down the wrong one with tragic consequences. This is the sort of thing I wouldn't be too surprised to hear about in the 3rd world, where training and airport maintenence can be lax, but in America it's inexcusable. Human factors were to blame for this, and it further advances the argument of those who believe that flying should be more computerized. In fact, there is apparently a device that can warm cockpit crews that they are on the wrong runway but only a few airlines have it, was mentioned in the paper today. Many don't have it because it is "too expensive." I'm sure the families of the victims would have a different opinion.
As long as a human is in the mix accidents like this will happen. I wouldn't say it’s inexcusable. The flight crew made a fatal mistake, I'm sure they didn't say "ah who cares we can take off on the shorter runway." As for detection devices don't blame the airlines the fault can be blamed on the FAA who has delayed the rollout. Below is description of the technology to avoid these accidents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonstop2AUH
Quote:
The Airport Surface Detection Equipment, model X is an important system developed after a fatal accident at LAX, providing affordable surface radar at airports so that controllers don't have to rely solely on visual observance. The program was originally slated for completion in 2007, but due to FAA budget cuts, only 15 of the scheduled 34 sites will have received the essential system by then. Ten medium sized airports still have absolutely no radar. During this delay, many controllers simply cannot "see" areas of an airport's surface due to obstructions and low visibility.
Thanks for that explanation, am I right in thinking that is the Honeywell-produced system described in the Times today?
What's sad is the government pushes budget cuts at the FAA which transfers more safety responsibility to the industry. But the airlines are pushing cost cutting themselves as many are in bankruptcy and even those that aren't need to improve profitability. So, the operator is in cost cutting mode, the regulator is in cost cutting mode, and the public incorrectly assumes that everything possible is being done to make their flight safe.
But, the public is also to blame for demanding ever-lower airfares and believing that commercial aviation has somehow been 'perfected.' If I had written the above prior to this weekend I would be met by a chorus of people telling me how safe things have been since AA587 with the unspoken implication being there will never be another accident. Funny how the public thinks the pilot is a glorified bus driver and the FAs are flying waitresses until bad stuff happens and then they expect the very same people to come save their lives.
FYI CNN Breaking News:
"FAA acknowledges it violated staffing policies with only one air traffic controller on duty at airport when Comair jet crashed Sunday, killing 49 people. "
Any thoughts?
I am no big fan of the tombstone agency but at least they are admitting the wrong in the situation, now how much of a contributing factor they will play is up to question though not much still as the pilot has the ultimate responsibility of safety of operations so the neglegence unfortuneately will still lay on the crew :(
What????? that's BS what do you know about the 727?Quote:
Originally Posted by Derf
Weren't you the one who said the super 27 had 2 different engine types . please how can u expect someone to take this seriously, let alone believe it!
p.s the stick shaker only went off as a stall warning and proceeded through the stall
And this Comair captain was a 7 yr vet. tell me how he could confuse runways as if he didn't see the big 22 at the threshhold. Something else had to be a factor!
I want to note that CNN had a video recreating the crash from "the pilot's perspective".
They used a "special program" which was nothing more than Microsoft Flight sImulator. Merely copying Moose's original recreation!
Um, isn't it kind of obvious that he DIDN'T see the big 22 on the rwy, or else he wouldn't have taken off? Aside from human error, what are you implying it could be? The pilot covering the F/O's eyes saying "Guess who?"?Quote:
Originally Posted by KLM777
There were obviously several factors that led to the pilots and ATC missing the fact that this palne was on the wrong runway. A little bit of fault can be placed in several places, much of it on those in control of the aircraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLM777
shall we consider the fact that the PF was the F/O not the Capt. and with CRM and such we do things diffrently than they did it 20 or more years ago up front, that and the fact that when you turn onto a runway espesially in the dark and considering the CRJ's taxi lamps are not on the nose gear maybe the illumination is not there to be able to see that and usually when you turn onto a runway that does not have a displaced threshold etc..... So again we as pilots are not perfect and we do make mistakes. There may well have been a factor such as the fact that the only one person was in the towe, maybe that airport has no ground radar as well. Soooooooo many factors play into it but the crew was at fault bottom line still unfortuneately.
The stick shaker is a device that warns you of impending stall condition meaning that you can fly with the stick shaker rattleing away. And by the way the super 27 does have two diffrent engine types the JT-8D-17 and JT-8D-219's so yes it is two diffrent engines on a 727. Please do not critisize the man he knows what he is taking about. There is even a 727 captain in these forums whom could answer this better than I could as i do not fly the 27. But let us return to topic at hand here.
Sure, who knows maybe he was up late because he couldn't sleep... Or maybe he had gotten in a fight with his wife the night before, and had that weighing in on his mind...Quote:
Originally Posted by KLM777
Obviously the pilot wasn't like "Well we're on RWY 22, let's takeoff"... Something happened in the flight deck that either distracted the crew from realizing they were on the runway, or the crew just wasn't all that alert to realize it..
The blackboxes, more specifically the CVRs, will shed a lot more light on what was going on in that flight deck just before takeoff.
Does anyone know when they may be realeased?
Still would have been pilot error, the crew was cleared to the correct runway.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonstop2AUH
It all depends what they find on the tape. You will have the FAA, NTSB, company Reps, Union officials, that will all have a chance to listen to the tape. More than likely, the aircraft manufacturer will send somebody to listen to the tapes as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by USAF Pilot 07
By the time the tapes are released, the media will forget about the crash & bury the story on page 40 of the newspaper.....
The super 27 DOES have 2 engine types....they do not remove the #2 engine and they do not have room for a bigger engine...what the hell are you talking about? can you enlighten me here???Quote:
Originally Posted by KLM777
Here is some more info from the guy who should not be taken
seriously.....
The super 27 has JT8D-200's at Nos. 1 and 3. No. 2 (center) is the original
engine with modifications and deletion of thrust reverser.
I know of two Valsan Partners converted 727-100 aircraft. The rest (that I
know of) are -200.
The JT8-217 engines have just almost 2 times the thrust of the JT9-7's or -
9's on the original aircraft.
I believe there was talk of just removing the #2 engine when the Super27
first hit the drawing board, but the 727 is a certified as a 3 enigne aircraft.
Removing the the 2nd engine would be a whole slew of red tape not worth
messing with.
In other words, re-certing an aircraft for a different engine usually has
benifits that far outweigh, the process/cost of the recert. Recerting a 3
engine to a 2 engine aircraft, isn't worth the time/effort.
The -217 can be stage 4 qualified but with the #2 engine running at rated
thrust the total package is very low in the stage 3 range.
So now I will leave it to you to correct the man that nobody should take
seriously.....we can now nitpic the FACTS!!!!
What equipment do you fly?
How much time do you have in it?
On a side note...this should really piss you off, The Super 27 has a
slower rated cruise than the original engines....yep, Engines are more
powerful yet the cruise is slower!!! but I do not really want to open that
can of worms now.