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I didn't know it was being broadcast live! Surprised the video is available so quickly.
Yes, I had to speak fast and get a lot out there in only 3 minutes, and I made it just in time. The part that you didn't hear when I turned around was to the PAPD officers, who had just received heroism awards, saying "This is of course not to discredit the work of the Port Authority Police Department, who do a great job keeping our ports safe everyday..."
I was pleased with the info that I was able to pass along to them. Already, I've received word that a memo is being prepared to be given to all PAPD commanding officers to address the PANYNJ's true policy on photos during roll calls to all PAPD officers.
This pretty much means that within the coming weeks, PAPD officers will know that aviation photography IS allowed on airport property, and maybe we can begin spotting in terminals without worry. I am working to also get a document that I can pass to you all to show you the exact rules, which can allow for quoting when questioned by officers, guard or concerned citizens.
PLEASE...if you have questions or anything, let me know so I can communicate more concerns to PANYNJ. Thanks guys.
I just learned that this memo will be made available to us as well, which I will pass along.
EWR spotting anyone? :)
Great Job Phil! Yes I did just watch the video. 2 thumbs up! Hope this all goes well..
Great job, Phil! I would have run out of breath by about the 5th sentence.
Nice speech Phil, as to exact rules I am little confused. Haven't we already established that? No checkpoints and people? Also in your private meeting did you broach the topic of the attitude that they would rather run us off and discourage that you mentioned earlier? I don't see why we need a piece of paper or quotes when the officer approaching us should be aware of the rule as we are and should be just checking that we are indeed just spotting and after a quick ID check should be on his way. If anything is to change it has to start with a mindset of acceptance and this being passed along to all officers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
Maybe you missed this part of Phil's post...Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
It doesn't matter if we know the real policy, it is up to PAPD command to make sure the troops know it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
BTW, I just had a chance to watch the video. Good job, Phil, although I might have re-thought that choice of tie... :-)
No but you obviously didn't read mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
Or this?Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
I am sure PA knows what the rule is since they are tasked with enforcing it. The underlying problem was a so called attitude Phil claimed in an email he supposedly saw. If anything is to change the commanders are going to have tackle that. Not just distribute a memo telling them something they already know. Or us carrying something around to use when we are approached. If real acceptance is accomplished this is unnecessary. Since all we would have to do it show and ID and explain what we are doing or develop contacts or a system where we announce our arrival beforehand. These are the things that can yield results. Not just merely stating the obvious.
Nick what's your point of being so argumentative instead of positive? Are you only interested in arguing or fighting? Lay down your weapons, we all want the best here, there is NO CONSPIRACY dude, none whatsoever :-)
Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here!
I have never seen you up in front of the PANYNJ or otherwise any podium... why not run for office already? You'd make a great politician :-)
I am not the one arguing Manny, just asking questions from Phil's meeting. I don't need to get on a podium I am not the de facto spokesperson here. Phil is. To be honest I really don't like to be tied into or with anything Phil or NYCAV does but since Phil is doing this and I am a NY spotter it effects me and I would like to know what is happening. If you want to rant and call me crazy send me a PM. Stop trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
[QUOTE=NIKV69;477314] To be honest I really don't like to be tied into or with anything Phil or NYCAV does /QUOTE]
:tongue::eek: :confused::rolleyes:
who's stopping you from doing your own thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
Nick, me ranting? Trolling? You are the one that sounds like a troll. Everyone else said thank you, you go on and on pointing out issue after issue etc. If anyone is a troll, it is you...
and you're afraid of discussing this publicly? I am not into PMs, too conservative. I like my liberal-semi-conservative views way out in public :tongue:
You will have to define that Eric. If you mean shooting and not being affiliated with this site is doing ones own thing that I guess I do that already. As I stated earlier I am a NY spotter. I don't consider myself part of Phil's site for the purposes he outlined in his speech. I merely post in the message forum. There is a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by eric8669
No, just one. The PA's attitude of rather discouraging us from shooting than tolerating. Stop clouding that with your rant. Again PM is your friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
Look, the point is as simple as this. We already knew that there was no rule against spotting or even photography at PA property. The issue was that the PD made up their own rules, completely randomly and varying from office to officer, and usually enforced with extreme prejudice.
This will at least attempt to spread the word within the PAPD that spotting is just fine.
As far as I knew, no. My own understanding, as was explained to me by airport management for years and from PAPD is that photography was not allowed on airport ground, even though there was no official rule on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
I mentioned it on the phone to the official I spoke with, and he was interested in hearing specifics of examples, which I intend to provide details of for all future encounters where that is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
My speech also specifically referenced the intimidationg with the intent of discouraging the spotter from continuing the hobby.
That is just it. I do not think that the officers actually know...because it wasn't published anywhere. All they had to go by was misinformation on what airport managers said the rules were...which was wrong. I personally (my opinion) is that PAPD officer simply did not know the rules, and maybe airport management felt tehy had the freedom to make up their own rules since there was no clear guidance from their higher ups at PANYNJ HQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
This was my whole point in asking for their actual stance on the hobby. With this clear rule and related memo, we will know that those officers and airport management have no room to tell us that photography is not allowed. It also gives us something tangible to show and stick up for ourselves with.
I could be wrong, but I don't think any of us felt we truly had the freedom or would feel comfortable going into any NYC terminals to spot. In the coming weeks, that will be a possibility again.
Let me know if you don't actually believe anything I say, I don't want to waste your time or mine if anything I say is just bull in your mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
As for the quote, though I didn't name the individual, I put the exact quote in the article that I wrote.
You're completely right. And this new step is a new chance for us to receive that acceptance, as we now have a tool in our belts specifically for it. Maybe the cops will press back...who knows? This isn't a final victory for on-airport spotting. We will need to see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
Ultimately, in the beginning of the thread, Nick, your concern was losing the one on-airport spotting location as a result of the article I wrote, and you wanted me to do more to build an even stronger relationship with Port to bridge that gap. Not only did my article help open a location in another city (San Antonio), but I did step it up even further as I planned and as you requested. So instead of losing a spot...we now stand to gain an infinite amount of spots, and finally have access to an airport that we didn't previously have access to (EWR).
And this isn't a victory yet, nor are this week's revelation's useful until we get that memo in-hand and go to the airports to test it all out. So you may be right...it's too early too tell.
Nick, as before, I am still open to suggestions if there is even more you think I can do that I haven't.
http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/media-access.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
Click middle tab that says Videotaping/photography at PA facilities.
I know I asked did you discuss this in your private meeting after your speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
See above link Phil. It is clear what their stance is. Your speech intro laid it out clearly that your site is tied to the media. You dropped CNN etc. So to them this is not a hobby and they will not differentiate. This is my concern that now all spotters will be painted with the same brush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
You misunderstood Phil, I believe you. I just asked if you touched on this in your meeting because it wasn't that the policy was not clear. (Above link) It was that PA would rather us not be there at all and that a relationship needed to be established.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
EWR is a smoke screen. No matter what happens the better spots at EWR like Ikea will not change since that is Elizabeth PD land. I shoot at EWR with no issue by simply using my head. This discussion is about the garages and terminals at JFK. Let's stick to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
How does a spotter get this memo? What happens if a spotter doesn't visit this site? I would rather have to check in with ops or something so they know we are there and have a name. I think it would much more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
Phil, you are a tireless advocate for everyone in this often misunderstood hobby. I think it is obvious that almost everybody here appreciates the hard work that you are doing.
+1 on that Phil.Quote:
Originally Posted by mldoc
Nick, you wanted me to PM you. Why didn;t you PM Phil? Just wondering that's all... LOL
Someone craves attention Manny.
Coming close to moderators locking this down?
After all the crap we've all been through the last few weeks.....CANT WE ALL GET ALONG? :frown:
Geez!!
OH SHUT UP lol :tongue::tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard
This is for commercial and media filming only. Nowhere does that page even suggest that any of those guidelines are intended for non-commercial, private use.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
Spectacular job. Thanks for all you've done, and you're making a real, tangible difference. It's much appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
OY!!!:eek::eek::cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by wunaladreamin
I also appreciate everything that Phil is trying to do. Like everybody on this site, we a thrilled to see aircraft on the move and the terminals are the best place to see the aircraft, after all. Sadly, many terminals don't allow the public into the departure areas anymore unless ticketed for flights. I have spent countless hours in terminals pre 9-11 and had great times for the most part. The guys bothering me were always from Argenbright, not the PAPD. Amusingly, wasn't Argenbright guards the ones who cleared several of the 9-11 hijackers through on that terrible morning in Boston? They did a great job, however, of chasing-away spotters! I never had any problems with the PA or with TSA but with private guards at the terminals. Hopefully, spotters will be recognized as legitimate and won't be suspect when seen hanging-around airports. "Thanks" also to the guy from SAA at JFK's T4 who pulled the paper baggage tags from me after I told him that I collect these tags and like the multi-color scheme. I now get palps whenever I see the SAA aircraft.
Phil comes through again. I've been a spotter since the 70's and have seen how bad things are for spotters. It started with PanAm 103 and got much worse after 9-11. While we can understand how our hobby could look suspicious; people and law enforcement must be educated and learn that there are many who love aviation and are friends of the industry. Somebody suggested spotters get special photo IDs to wear around airports easily identifying us after a background check. This idea has never taken-off ground with the authorities. Maybe one-day!
Thank you to those who have offered kind words, your support means a lot. As I said, it's early yet to see what will really come of this, but I am glad to do what I can to help out the hobby. For all the time spent NOT spotting, folks like Matt and I are working on the site and related projects to hopefully serve the aviation world as we can. I am lucky that NYCA gets the this level of traffic and attention that now allows our voice to be heard when speaking to a powerhouse organization like PANYNJ.
Phil,
Congratulations on a job well done! Hopefully I'll be able to enjoy a little hassle-free night photography next time I'm in town... :D
Yes we have that system in place at IAD where we call and notify airport ops our presence if we are at the top of the parking garages. Then the ops will notify the airport police of our presence and its all over.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
I decided to check back on this thread a month later to see where things stood. Phil you fought the good fight and hopefully some kind of progress will be made.
After reading Fasil's post and remembering that you have to call ahead of time in Boston as well, has anybody ever tried just calling PAPD and saying 'hey, just letting you know this is who I am, this is my car, I'm a plane spotter so I will be taking photos of the planes from some legal locations, then I'll be on my way, thank you.' I'm not asking for people's opinions about what they think would happen if they did that, I am asking if someone actually did it at JFK. If you did, please feel free to detail what happened here.
There was an unofficial procedure just like that at LGA, and it worked for a few months until one day they told us that we couldn't do that.
There was another time where the cops came and were confused as to why we called the cops on ourselves since photography wasn't allowed.
It's long been my opinion the Port Authority has just been being clever all these post 911 years. NJ Transit and MTA (and many others) have found out the hard way they have very little in the way of legitimate legal standing to "ban" photography in what some imagine is "their world". The misguided perception is that, for example, and I read this years ago on an Anet forum "Massport [or whoever] can do whatever they want" on their property, in their sphere of influence, etc. Again, this is an incorrect notion. It may seem that way, but laws, policies, rules etc must always be reasonable rational and practical if they are to survive a challenge. Mindless photography "bans" will not pass muster in even the medium term and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is smart enough to know this. And perhaps their unofficial piecemeal approach to the "issue" has some merit (I am not certain), but for it to work, restraint and wisdom has to be a part of the professionalism they expect from *all* their frontline officers. And most seem to quite good in my experience, but not this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by yankees368
I wish there was a petition to sign like the one going-around now to save the PanAm Worldport. It may not do any good, like those MTA hearings on fare hikes which are a joke, but at least it's something. Imagine a day when spotters don't have to look over their shoulder to see if they are being watched and harrassed. At least if the airports would offer a special observation area for spotters, that would be something! Remember when LGA used to have rocking chairs encouraging spotters at the Central Terminal?