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Absolutely. Believe me my Irish doesnt allow me to suffer fools easily but I've had no problems the last few years including 3 trips to Europe. On my lastQuote:
Originally Posted by mirrodie
trip to Phoenix Iwas pulled over for a pat-down (JetBlue) and the TSA worker was a complete professional. Took a few minutes and I was on my way!
No no no... that is my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to caffeinate as much as I possibly can :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
Look bottom line is I love to DISCUSS ideas without feeling like others are imposing their way of life on me. As for the ID thing, while I do not mind it one bit, I actually never knew there was no regulation saying you must. Recently, Warren Buffet made a great statement about Mitt Romney and himself paying no more than 15% taxes while Warren's own secretary pays almost 34%. He said the LAW allows him to do that LEGALLY ... forget moral and ethics... we are a society governed by the rule of law. If you;re not happy with that, CHANGE the law... it is there for the changing .Why would anyone fault someone from paying the least taxes they have to? Would you pay 45% because you have a civic duty?
I believe it is a similar issue here. I do believe, however, the whole incident started when the filming started.
Nick, Phil, do you believe this incident would have gone differently had there been no witnesses and / or recording devices? Phil, you're absolutely correct, there is a lot more due process and less violent / unknown outcomes in the US. Partly because we are more civil and lately partly more due to greater exposure via cell phone cameras, security cameras and awareness. Not many years ago, someone would have been foceably removed by their throat and no one would have known it. That would be a shame...
I don;t fly a lot but lately, every trip back from Dominican Republic ends up with me going to the Customs office and sitting there while an officer punches a few keys into a different computer and eventually lets me go... I really don;t care. I have nothing to hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard
Been through security lots of times, I take off my shoes, put the laptop down wherever they want, I walk when I am told, stop when I am told, go through the sniffer when I am told, never complain, sometimes missing a flight or connection due to the long lines at security checkpoints... have had to argue with TSA managers to get my money clip back (not the money, just the leather clip) etc. etc. ALWAYS extremely professional and I have never felt harassed, singled out etc. I have nothing but good things to say about TSA.
I still feel that if the rules say no ID is required, then so be it... I have the CHOICE to drive or not travel at all... No ID required on a Bus or Train/Subway... No ID required for me to drive a huge U-Haul truck to Manhattan from Albany and right through Times Square, Wall Street and The Village ... are we taking the airline industry too serious just because planes were used as weapons? Are we sure Gov't Issued ID is that secure? YEs I know that some deterrent is better than none... agreed, but some here make it seem like it is the ONE SURE bet defense...
Regardless of how we feel about it individually, no law was broken it seems as a jury felt that there wasn't and had everyone known the rules as they should, none of this would have happened and we would be discussing ways to come together and vote for the laws to be strengthened!
Btw, I don't appreciate that the TSA agents (JFK mostly) are not making eye contact with the public/travelers, speaking out loud and seemingly annoyed at the passengers, sometimes cursing, laughing out loud, holding up the process while they look at Facebook Photos on someone's phone (all real experiences by me, not anecdotal) etc. That will NOT make them seem as professional as they should/have to be. So far the most professional folks at the JFK complex (except for the airline staff itself) are the Customs Agents who so far have been absolutely professional.
I think there are individuals in the position of authority who, at a time, might have abused their power and done something to the guy. But I don't think that someone doing that on an individual basis compares to what goes on in other countries, where it is almost their policy and method of enforcement. Social media and technology allow us to have a louder voice. Will politicians listen to us? I'm losing faith.
Aviation has a history of being used in terror much more than other modes here in the US, even before 9/11. Hijackings and such were almost commonplace for decades, and the additional threat because the palnes themselves are bombs that can come down anywhere is what makes it a true threat, and more so than a bus or train (though security needs to be tightened there as well).Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
I disagree, I think Trains pose a far greater threat as missiles and their ability to enter deep into a city center regularly and easily... but now we are getting too involved in the how and ideas and I am not happy with that ... I'll just leave it at that :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
We are going to put a pic of your face in every Starbucks with a sign. Do not serve this man!Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
Romney paid 15% on money made from investments. Not income. Just because he was smart enough to make enough 20 years ago doesn't mean we need to tax him more. In fact he paid 3 million toward the fed how much did she pay? Trust me we are never going to tax people who invest more than what we do now. If we did they would invest in another country like Dubai that has no tax on the people who start business and hire.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
Couldn't say but I know it would have been much different if he had brought his ID.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
We continue to talk about the TSA like it's a living being. It's an agency. Made up of a lot of people. Which means like anything else there will be good and bad. I am sure any attitude from agents can be from a number of things. Including the thousands of idiots who don't listen. Hold up lines, and make everyone pretty much pissed off for 8 hours. It has to be the most thankless job going.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
About what exactly Phil? The fact that law enforcement and the TSA has agents that are badge heavy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D
They do, subways especially. In fact I would hope NYPD is prepared because a germ type or anthrax type attack in the subway would be devastating. You really couldn't get the desired effect with a bomb but chemical wise you could. Not to mention there is really no way to screen people getting into the subway.Quote:
I disagree, I think Trains pose a far greater threat as missiles and their ability to enter deep into a city center regularly and easily... but now we are getting too involved in the how and ideas and I am not happy with that ... I'll just leave it at that :)
It is good to see the common sense comments here.
As much as I would like to comment on this subject I do not wish to be pulled into something that may come back to haunt me especially since the subject of this thread may be participating.
These are my personal comments and are made as such and I am not representing the TSA in any way.
Hi, all. Thank you for your interest in my case, and for the generally-civil tone of this thread. I'm completely comfortable discussing something about which other people disagree without taking any of it personally. I need to be just a bit careful about what I say, as there are still some legal matters to settle, but I'm happy to talk about anything that is already public information.
Before I get to specific responses, I'd like to clear up a few things about the right to air travel in the United States. Many people have been led to believe that it's a privilege, but that's not the case.
A commercial airline is not just a private business, it's a business which operates as a common carrier. If you pay the fare and follow its general rules, it is not allowed to deny you service.
The "public right of freedom of transit" by air is guaranteed by the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, and the TSA is required by Federal law (49 USC § 40101) to consider this right when it issues regulations. Freedom of movement is required in order for us to exercise our right to assemble, which is guaranteed by the First Amendment. Freedom of movement is also guaranteed by Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, a human rights treaty signed and ratified by the United States.
Federal law acknowledges our right to travel by air:
Quoting United States Code TITLE 49—TRANSPORTATION > SUBTITLE VII—AVIATION PROGRAMS > PART A—AIR COMMERCE AND SAFETY > subpart i—general > CHAPTER 401—GENERAL PROVISIONS > § 40101. Policy:
Quote:
(c) General Safety Considerations. — In carrying out subpart III of this part and those provisions of subpart IV applicable in carrying out subpart III, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall consider the following matters:
(1) the requirements of national defense and commercial and general aviation.
(2) the public right of freedom of transit through the navigable airspace.
In the United States, we operate under the belief that all people are born with certain rights. The U.S. Constitution doesn't define rights. The Bill of Rights limits the power of our federal government in such a manner that it is restricted from infringing upon people's rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
That does sound bothersome. However, if we all went along with unjust and/or unlawful orders, it might save us some time in the short run, but it would likely lose us some freedom in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
I don't do anything with the intention of being an ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
I'm grateful to live in a place that is -- at least on paper -- a nation of laws, not of men. I'm fortunate that the place where my rights were violated has a system in which the accused stands before a jury of his peers before being judged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
A jury of six people and one alternate listened intently through two days of trial, then deliberated for about an hour before acquitting me of each of the four charges leveled against me. Contrary to the the claims of Albuquerque Aviation Police Department Officer Robert F. "Bobby" Dilley, I did not trespass, I did not resist, obstruct or refuse to obey a lawful order of a law enforcement officer officer, I did not conceal my identity with intent to obstruct, intimidate, hinder or interrupt (I didn't conceal it at all, in fact), and I did not engage in disorderly conduct. The state's case was so weak that I presented no evidence and offered no testimony. State witnesses lied in their written reports and on the stand, and the jury saw through it.
I firmly believe that we should not be required to request and receive permission from our government before traveling from one state to another.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
TSA's identity checks serve two purposes: airline revenue protection (less than 20 years ago, you could resell a ticket you purchased if you decided not to fly; now they'll sell your seat a second time), and facilitation of a system of restricting people's movement by way of government black lists.
I think it's crazy to think that we have a list of people who are so dangerous that they should not be allowed to fly -- even after walking through a metal detector and having their belongings searched for dangerous items -- and that instead of sending the police to arrest them and put them in front of judges, we should wait around for them to show up at airports with valid documentation of their identities, then either hassle them before they board the flight, or turn them away and let them go about their non-interstate-traveling business.
The sad thing about this whole sorry incident is it was born out of the agenda of not having to show ID. I was going to waste some more of my time and ask you if you really think that by rebelling against the TSA we are somehow going to head off some doomsday scenario where all of our rights are taking away but why bother.Quote:
That does sound bothersome. However, if we all went along with unjust and/or unlawful orders, it might save us some time in the short run, but it would likely lose us some freedom in the long run.
I ask you. With all the fringe agenda aside how do you propose we can travel safely? Be specific in how you would search and prevent threats and how to keep everyone safe in the air. Including logistics at the airport. How pax are screened etc.
Please note that months ahead of my flight, at the public suggestion of TSA's Curtis "Blogger Bob" Burns, I contacted 50 major U.S. airports to inquire about any local policies they might have which would restrict photography or videotaping in publicly-accessible areas of the airport. Among them was ABQ. I had written notice -- which was published to the Web for all the world to see on a popular forum for frequent fliers -- from ABQ TSA staff, that no such prohibition existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
That's not at all surprising. TSA deliberately mislead people about this non-requirement. Identifying yourself with printed documentation just gets you through security faster and with a less-thorough check. Please see "TSA's airline passenger identification policies" for a concise description of what I've learned about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
I'm not specifically familiar with New York law, but I'm quite confident that there is no place in the United States where one is required to have proof of identity, much less to carry it with him and present it upon demand (though I think there is effectively such a requirement in Arizona if your skin is brown). The Flex Your Rights Foundation publish some great information about your rights and responsibilities during police encounters.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalu
This made for some interesting reading.
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/daily...oint_trial.php
Especially this part.
Mocek is being represented in court byNancy Hollander, a New Mexico defense attorney renowned for representing two Guantanamo Bay detainees
I also found this funny.
When police were summoned, Mocek refused to give his name and other personal information, and as a result he is referred to as "John Doe" in places in the reports. He was ordered to leave the airport and refused, after which he was arrested.
So in addition to purposely not bringing ID (you believe we never have to prove who we are) you don't feel we should tell anyone in law enforcement who we are.
So no need to bring ID, The TSA has no legal right to scan us or pat us down but we can climb on an aircraft and fly? Yet people wonder why most of the country thinks Ron Paul is insane.
I think by "screened" you meant "searched." TSA staff screen the flow of passengers through TSA's airport barricades by searching them, questioning them, and then either granting or denying them permission to proceed about their lawful business. TSA folks use lots of euphemisms to keep us from thinking about their intrusive and unconstitutional practices.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
I don't know you, of course, but it sounds as if you're being manipulated by fear. If there were mad bombers lurking around every corner hoping to kill large numbers of people, they would detonate their bombs in restaurants, in stadiums, in public parks, on busy street corners, or in the line of people waiting to have their shoes X-rayed and water bottles confiscated just outside of airport security. But those things aren't happening. I don't believe that all these would-be mass-murderers are insistent upon executing their devilish plans specifically on commercial aircraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
What makes you say that? I was trying to get home from a conference. I ended up in jail for a day and a half because TSA staff lied about their own policies, then some police officers were bothered by my lawful and respectful behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69
No. It's very, very, easy to take it with you. Traveling without ID is hard. Being diverted to another line for extra searches is hard. Being threatened by people who can stop you from traveling, or by other people who carry guns and have the authority to lock you in a cage, while taking a principled stand when you could suck it up and voluntarily surrender your rights, is hard. Flexing your rights when you think you don't need them in hopes that they'll still be around when you do is hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKV69