As feared..We've reached bulldashery levels with the TSA!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phil D.

You're talking about several issues at once. With regard to this woman...what were they SUPPOSED to do? I'd love to hear suggestions.

---

Not my job to make those suggestion Phil...that's why we have a Gov't who we trust hires competent workers who can make sound judgement calls. I don't ask someone who doesn't work for me how I should run my business as my company didn't hire them to manage my dept's, budget lines, inventory, and other assets. They hired me because of my experience and they trust my judgement. If I made the magnitude of mistakes the TSA did I'd be out of a job. If the TSA has to come to the public for suggestions then we really are screwed. I'm sorry that some get all in a tizzy when a post is made pointing out the TSA's mistakes but a forum like this related to aviation is just such a forum to discuss these events.

Just one more thing about the TSA's "proper procedure". Ponder this? What reaction would you have if that was your grandmother, wife, or child? Some of you I feel may have ended up in jail over the reaction you would have had. So lets call is spade to spade...this organization, its workers, leadership, and procedures are a complete and utter failure to the tenth degree!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-Bird76

Not my job to make those suggestion Phil...that's why we have a Gov't who we trust...

---

The king quote from people who complain. I don't care who gets paid to do what, I feel that people who don't have suggestions on how or think they can do it better shouldn't complain.

I see NO problem with what happened with the old lady.

Remember the underwear bomber? Yawn bulldashery. Wake me up when we reach hornswagglery. Egadz!

tom, Phil has a point. If you are going to complain then have an alternative.

I dont trust the body scanners that are supposedly safe. As safe as Agent Orange and 911 dust. But I think, for instance, thermal imaging, while expensive, has its merits.

As Phil said, as it relates to this case, if this lady was truly Tim McVeighs nana, how would you ensure that she didnt have a pipebomb in her Depends? At least give an alternative.

If you were g-dforbid the employee here, what would you have done?
I think its a fair and valid question to ask someone who is against the current scenario that took place.

Is it in poor taste? Yes. Would it be in poor taste were it not done and she was a terrorist and the plane went down?

And not for nothing, but hte daughter not having an extra diaper? WTF? She crapped her diaper before the plane took off. Was she going to sit in it on the entire ride? maybe the TSA did the plane a favor....

The simple fact is it is still not clear what happened so we shouldn't be making declaratory statements about TSA folks being uneducated or wasting our money.

That said, defending them if they DID do this is unfathomable. There is no legitimate security concern that outweighs the common dignity of anyone, particularly an elderly woman. But it's still not clear who did what.

Matt, Butt out! We do not need that calm cool voice of reason in this thread! You could have at least waited until I finished my popcorn!

Ok, since you ended it, I have to give you points for doing it in an elegant yet forceful way. I could not agree more and very well said...but next time please check to see how much popcorn I have left? Please?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-Bird76

I don't ask someone who doesn't work for me how I should run my business as my company didn't hire them to manage my dept's, budget lines, inventory, and other assets. They hired me because of my experience and they trust my judgement. If I made the magnitude of mistakes the TSA did I'd be out of a job.

---

True, but you also don't make $15/hour, your position most likely requires more than just a GED or high school diploma and if you don't do your job correctly, thousands of people won't die. Also, you're in more of a managerial position (vs. a laborer), and the company you work most likely encourages you to use discretion and be creative in the decisions you make and in managing the people who work for you because money is your bottom line. Not to mention, you probably aren't bounded by thousands of rules and regulations telling you how to do your job.
I trust myself, and I'd trust someone like you to use discretion and treat each situation differently. But I can't say I'd trust a straight out of high-school, no work experience, no managerial experience and someone who's had limited "corporate" interaction between different organizations to do the same. I'm not trying to knock the TSA; I respect the job they do as it is a tough one, but it is a large government organization that hires all different types of people from all different backgrounds, and needs to ensure uniformity at some level.

Discretion is important, but when it comes to the public's safety certain guidelines and rules have to be followed, especially if failure to follow those rules could lead to death. And, in an organization as large as the TSA, who employs tens of thousands of people and is in thousands of airports across the US, it is important to have uniformity and "black and white" guidelines across the board. If you allow individual employees, who have very limited training and who do not require extensive schooling to use their own discretion, you will end up with a broken, haphazard system.

The TSA is in a tough, "damned if you do, damned if you don't" spot, and always will be. Hindsight is 20/20; obviously this woman wasn't a terrorist - but what if one day something goes down where terrorists used a situation like this to get explosive materials past airport security? The headlines would be all over the TSA for failing to do their job, and if it was found out the agent who allowed that person to proceed through security did so because individually they did not see a threat and used their own personal discretion, there would be a massive uproar.

Flying commercially is not a right. If you want to avoid situations like these, then be prepared to pay for it in time and money. Set up a system like El Al uses. But, then don't complain when you have to show up 4+ hours prior to your flight, when you have to wait in ridiculously long lines, answer a long list of personal questions, and when your ticket price increases because in order to have people who are able to use "discretion" working security, you'll have to employ highly trained, behavioral analysts who demand high salaries.

Until then, we'll have to live with stories like these which most likely represent less than 0.1% of the flying population's experiences with the TSA... It doesn't mean it's right, but with an organization as large as the TSA, no one will ever get things 100% right, 100% of the time, and to be quite honest I'd rather be safe than sorry.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phil D.

The king quote from people who complain. I don't care who gets paid to do what, I feel that people who don't have suggestions on how or think they can do it better shouldn't complain.

I see NO problem with what happened with the old lady.

---

Phil I have to wonder what your reaction would be if that was one of your relatives....I think I know what your reaction would be... I don't buy your statement that you don't have a problem..you would if it was one of your relatives.

Groping people, fondling babies, humiliating the elderly, failing time and time again at security tests, and lying about new scanning procedures is not acceptable and if you think it is then you're wrong.

I don't know what you're referring to when it comes to groping people and fondling babies, but for this case, if it happened to a relative, I don't feel that I'd flip out, from what I know of the situation. Maybe my opinion would change if it did happen to a relative but I, considering what we know and don't know, don't know it's that big of a deal....it's the price we have to pay for security.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phil D.

....it's the price we have to pay for security.

---

Sorry, but I have to disagree. It's the price we have to pay for political correctness, or at the most the Illusion of security.

If there really was a demand for real security, the TSA would run the airports like the Israelis.. Look funny, we're going to take you into a little room and ask your questions for hours, meet certain conditions, same little room.

I'm sorry, but the TSA is a real sore subject for me. I stand (as a professional pilot) and get poked, prodded and scrutinized like a convicted criminal, all the while watching 12.00 an hour ramp agents that barely (if at all) speak english simply walk right past security.

But because people are afraid of "profiling" I have to subject myself to dangerous radiation, humiliating pat downs, and be subject to the approval of a wanna be cop with a fresh GED?

And for the record, half of my household income comes from the TSA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phil D.

I don't know what you're referring to when it comes to groping people and fondling babies, but for this case, if it happened to a relative, I don't feel that I'd flip out, from what I know of the situation. Maybe my opinion would change if it did happen to a relative but I, considering what we know and don't know, don't know it's that big of a deal....it's the price we have to pay for security.

---

Phil paying a high price for security is fine, but not for incompetence, and failure.

[Quote "Lauren Gaches, a spokesperson for the Transportation Security Administration, would not comment on the incident beyond the statement released Monday morning.

"While every person and item must be screened before entering the secure boarding area, TSA works with passengers to resolve security alarms in a respectful and sensitive manner," the statement read. "We have reviewed the circumstances involving this screening and determined that our officers acted professionally, according to proper procedure and did not require this passenger to remove an adult diaper."

Weber said that airport security advised her that they could not examine the contents of the diaper, which was soiled. "They said they would have to be removed and I had to take her to the airport restroom outside of security to do that." Otherwise, Weber said, " ... they would have not released her to board the plane."
TSA officials offered to retrieve Reppert's luggage off the plane so that she could change into a clean diaper, the Associated Press reported, but Weber said time constraints did not allow for that." End Quote]

TSA is now saying that they never requested the depends to be "REMOVED". That may be true but clearly something transpired. Either the TSA agent who was doing the pat-down detected the aroma and took it upon themselves to suggest that the diaper be changed in order for them to handle doing their job, or some type of scanning process detected the soiling and TSA had to follow the rules and determine beyond a reasonable doubt that the brown substance was not an explosive? So in essence the depends wasn't to be removed but "changed" in this case?

If it was the former, then as mrrodie suggests maybe the agent felt they were doing the pax a favor? (as in "hey I think a trip to the bathroom is in order") If it was the latter, then TSA has serious issues and a lot of reworking is in order. In that case the real question is "Exactly what was the perceived threat from Ms Weber and her ill 95 year old mother?" Is there a reasonable concern that these two individuals are going to cause an airplane harm in this instance? I'm sorry just because someone in Upper Angola tried to put a bomb in the underwear once does not justify a blanket policy IMHO.

For the "its the price we have to pay crowd...", I want to be on the line to see the looks on your faces when a TSA agent tells you to please go to the rest room and change into a fresh pair of BVD's, as the scanner has picked up a skid-mark and we need to verify it's not a dangerous substance. :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-Bird76

Phil paying a high price for security is fine, but not for incompetence, and failure.

---

We can only talk case by case, from what's being reported (although I've read conflicting reports so far on this one) I see nothing wrong with what happened. Wanna fly? Change your diaper or the diaper of the person you care for. Everything that happened was done in private it seems and if you know the risk or someone check everything on your person exists and you don't like that, take a train or ship.