Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
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Originally Posted by GothamSpotter
Is there any probable cause needed to warrant performing a frisk?
Good Question Gotham!
Definitely for those taking pictures of airliners from a open public place where this is regularly done since before 911 is a must for any crack anti-terrorism agency.
Three plainclothes officers? Throw in another two marked NYPD cars and two or three other officers - all the better. Excellent use of resources.
Definitely check that ID too. See if there are any outstanding terrorism warrants :roll:
Its not as if there is any crime going on in Jamaica, Rockaway, Howard Beach, JFK etc...
Resume patrol....
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
Matt's right. Many of us have been questioned, detained or patted down at some point or another....without even knowing what crime they are accusing us of. It's certainly a leap to say that it's suspicion of terrorism.
But, I guess that's the Patriot Act for you.
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
Well its nice to hear two differing perspectives from at least 2 law enforcers here.
Makes one think the law enforcement tactics are as consistent as screening standards. :wink:
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
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Originally Posted by Phil D.
Matt's right. Many of us have been questioned, detained or patted down at some point or another....without even knowing what crime they are accusing us of. It's certainly a leap to say that it's suspicion of terrorism.
But, I guess that's the Patriot Act for you.
Yeah, but Phil, they're saying "You know why we have to do this" while they're doing it. I've been patted down and momentarily detained before as well, without knowing what was going on, but no officer was saying "you know why we have to do this" while that was happening.
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
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Makes one think the law enforcement tactics are as consistent as screening standards
Of course they are Mario! Come on if they weren't our acceptance ratios would all be 100% :borat:
Seriously it's apples and oranges. Not every LO encounter is going to be the same. Sure being patted down may at first seem extreme. Again we are dealing with human beings so you are not going to get the same thing every time. Some officers may pat down in a certain situation where some others won't. When I had my encounter at ISP they didn't pat me down yet they searched my car. I could care less. I had nothing to hide. The female officer was a total idiot the whole encounter. Maybe her gf wouldn't give her action the night before who knows. Then I had to tell her to go screw when she wanted my SS#. No way I was giving that out. She didn't like that but it had to be more BS because when homeland security came to my house they didn't ask for it. As Phil said in this post 9/11 era we are probably never going to be like we were before.
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
>She didn't like that but it had to be more BS because when homeland security came to my house they didn't ask for it<
They came to your house?
>As Phil said in this post 9/11 era we are probably never going to be like we were before.<
That is an absolute certain.
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
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Originally Posted by Gerard
>She didn't like that but it had to be more BS because when homeland security came to my house they didn't ask for it<
They came to your house?
They've been to mine, and it was TWO WEEKS after I had taken photos. Oh yeah, and I wasn't near the airport at the time. I was 1/2 mile away from the airport in a public parking lot (although it was on final for 24).
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
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They came to your house?
Yep, I was approached by SCPD about 5pm, they knocked on my door 9pm.
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
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Originally Posted by NIKV69
Quote:
They came to your house?
Yep, I was approached by SCPD about 5pm, they knocked on my door 9pm.
Whoa, when did they come to your house? Did you let them in? What exactly went on and how much of your time did they take?
On one hand, I'm somewhat impressed that they showed up at your place. On the other, it makes me doubt the investigative techniques of the department that initially questioned you.
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
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Whoa, when did they come to your house
The evening after I got approached by SCPD in the bank lot at ISP. April 04'?
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Did you let them in
No I told them to go away, of course I let them in. Why wouldn't I? Mi casa es su casa.
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What exactly went on and how much of your time did they take?
There was two of them. One was homeland security and the other was SCPD. The SC detective was aware of my cousin who is a Chief Inspector with SCPD and at the time was a Captain and a very respected homicide detective while he was coming up. He brought that up and things were very cordial. They sat at the kitchen table, I offered them a drink which they refused. They asked me why I took pics of planes and what I do with them. I told them about anet and they wrote it down and thanked me and left. They were probably in my house for no more than 10 mins.
Here is my momento.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...QC-bizcard.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...D-bizcard2.jpg
Re: 1/25/08 - A Tale of Two Encounters
I'm not a lawyer, but from my reading of the law (and a report issued by the New York AG's office a while back), the frisks and requests for ID may not have been on firm legal grounds.
New York state actually has stricter laws regulating police-citizen encounters than the federal government does. A 1976 appellate court decision, People v. De Bour, lays out four levels of intrusiveness, and the standards needed for each. Any police officer can approach and talk with any person at any time -- that's fine. (They're allowed, apparently, to ask "nonthreatening questions" about your "identity, reason for being at a particular location, or travel plans, where the request is 'supported by an objective, credible reason, not necessarily indicative of criminality.'")
The second level of intrusiveness (the "common-law right of inquiry") requires a founded suspicion that "criminal activity is afoot" (and not necessarily that you're the one instigating it.) This suspicion allows the officer to ask more questions beyond the ones laid out above, ask for explanations, et cetera. The difference between this and the first level is pretty subtle, and apparently comes down to how intimidating the encounter is.
The third level requires "reasonable suspicion" of criminality, and roughly corresponds to a "Terry stop" as described in federal case law. This is where New York state's stop-and-identify law comes into play, and the police may legally demand ID, frisk you, and detain you. (The patdown search is for when an officer has a reasonable fear that he or she "is dealing with an armed and dangerous individual"...which seems a bit much for the average planespotter, who isn't carrying anything more threatening than a long lens and maybe a radio.)
The fourth level is an arrest, which requires "probable cause" that you have committed or are committing a crime.
Any cop can ask you for ID or for your permission to frisk you or search your car, but they can't order you to show ID or submit to a search unless they have "reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot." You are perfectly within your rights to politely ask if you are free to go, to refuse to show ID, and to walk away. The Supreme Court has held that refusal to answer a police officer's questions does not in itself constitute "reasonable suspicion." (New York state law agrees with this point.)
Let me be clear here: I'm not for a moment advocating not cooperating with the police, and I know that they have a difficult, dangerous, ill-paying job to do. I think that by far the easiest way to deal with a police encounter is to allay their suspicions by giving them what they want. But I also think it's important to know your rights.
