Al-Qaeda Suspects Sue Boeing

Rafal...you're forgetting a number of wars where we lost a lot of men, Korean War, War of 1812, oh and one that we lost a ton of our own. The Civil War. I don't disagree with you that the given reasons for invading Iraq are somewhat questionable. I do believe there was and still is a real strategic reason for invading Iraq for our greater security.

If you look at the geographic location of Iraq its dead center in the middle of the two last holdouts of state supported terrorism, Syria and Iran. I think the gov't felt a democratic Iraq with U.S support would put huge pressure on Iran and Syria to give up its support of terror organizations. I don't think it’s worked as planned but I'm not giving up yet.

I think Iran may be starting to figure out it needs to change or its going to be wiped off the face of this earth and not by us but by Israel. The talks between the U.S and Iran are ground breaking even if they were simply early talks. I think our plan is working and with countries like Libya turning the corner towards peace and involvement in the community of nations we have a chance at winning.

Back to the main topic though I feel very strongly about the steps we need to take to ensure our safety here in the U.S and if that means using torture or even the threat of it to extract information from these pigs then so be it. These people aren't humans anyway. The ACLU is entirely un-American in its support for these people who aren't even U.S Citizens. Moose you know I have the utmost respect for you but I can't have any respect for this organization.

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Originally Posted by nwafan20

They are fighting for the freedom of all Iraqis. You know what? The Iraqis are grateful for all we have done.

You go live in a country ruled by a dictator

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Thats my point. Bush didn't go to Iraq to fight for Iraqi freedom. He changed his slogan half way to save his face.

To your second point. I actually have lived in a country like that for 18 years.

If Bush didn't send them there, your cousins friend would have been alive now.

Iraqi people are very gratefull for bringing democracy to Iraq. And probably thats why everyday US is losing 10 troops...

I would love Bush to move to Iraq after his presidency expire. He would live in democratic country that he have created. Iraqi people love him so much that he would have better there than here...

I'm signing off from this topic. Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion.

And that was my opinion. I don't want to argue pointlessly. We are not going with this anywhere anyway.

Rafal

<< BTW - When I took this picture I was paying a visit to a family member >>

I am sorry to hear that Rafal.

In regards to the ACLU, my feelings are the organization has a noble history, and to this day has taken up some very worthwhile causes.

While I gave up following what the New York Chapter (and some other elements of the organization) are up to, I came to the conclusion well over 10 years ago that our local chapter is essentially a Criminals Lobby and not much more.

The last example I can remember (of dozens and dozens) is them effectively helping to nail the school security officer in the Bronx who spotted a "bulge" in a students' jacket and pulled the kid over - and found a gun. The ACLU now works in the abstract and not in reality. They would prefer the guns enter the school and chips fall where they may - they have a principle to uphold and your kids might just have to be sacraficed to preserve their utopian vision. You have to smash a few eggs to make an omlet of course.

I don't either mind theoretically the ACLU's principled stand on the perceived "rights" of alleged Al Quida members, but does anyone honestly not think many in that organization would not relish an opportunity to acquit a manifestly guilty terrorist on a technicality? I am certain many in the organization would be happy to do that...

In the immediate aftermath of 911, and I mean immediate, the were a handful of persons, (probably hundreds really) some librarian in Florida comes to mind - and a couple of universities I believe - adamantly refusing to provide any requested documentation from the FBI on certain individuals. THis was at a time there was a fear Al Quida had smuggled a nuclear bomb into the US. didn't matter to these patriots..

And too, it is worth noting that the ACLU no longer appears as interested as they once were in across the board rights, so much as a politicized agenda - picking and choosing their civil liberties concerns in anything other than a disinterested passion for such.

I don't believe either that these (Al Quida) terrorists qualify under the Geneva Convention. It is a "made up" right. And, apart from that, it is worth considering Al Queda is not beholden to the Geneva Convention anyway.

As for the war, it is worth noting in terms of deaths, a similar number of Americans have been killed by illegal aliens during that time period. Yet, it is not viewed with such urgency.

I am personally sorry this administration chose to go to Iraq. No govt seems able to tolerate or trust Al Quida within its borders, apart from the Taliban - not even our good friends the Saudi's. Even the repellent Sudan offered him up... Libya would not be able to tolerate them, and the Paki govt would eliminate them if they only could. Certainly Sadam would've dealt with them.

Of course NOW, with Iraq in a state of catastrophe, and foreign fighters entering the country every day, I suppose there could be an argument to stay and just kill as many as possible "over there" - but the political will does not appear to be there for that.

In a real war, one you intend to win, you need more troops - alot more. And you need to kill alot of more people. Falujah should've been obliderated from the map...but it wasn't. Game Over.

Is Putin having any more trouble with the Checkens?

TT

getting a little political, are we?

The US liberated Iraq from Saddam, that's good, but now a lot of Iraqis are targeting us because they see us as invaders.

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Originally Posted by G-BOAD

The US liberated Iraq from Saddam, that's good, but now a lot of Iraqis are targeting us because they see us as invaders.

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Not true at all. The Iraqis still love us there. The only ones killing us are the extremists.

then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by G-BOAD

then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

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Umm.... the citizens aren't attacking us. Its called terrorists who are fed in there through Iran or homegrown.

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Originally Posted by tipek

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Originally Posted by T-Bird76

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I think in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

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Suspected enemies of the state are guilty until proven innocent. These guys weren't even American nor were they taken into custody in the U.S, so those laws do not apply.

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But Geneva Convention rules apply. In this case I agree with John but I think that ACLU is pure crap.

Tommy, I think that we would be much safer in America if 300 000 US soldiers protected us here and not invading Iraq.

And here is my shot taken month ago of soldiers killed by Bush family.
http://home.comcast.net/~tipek/cmentarz.jpg

Rafal

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I had no idea Bush was responsible for WWII and Korea...

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Originally Posted by RDU-JFK

I had no idea Bush was responsible for WWII and Korea...

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Bush is also responsible for:
• The Great Depression
• The Cubs' 99 year World Series drought
• The sinking of the Titanic
• The theft of Pam and Tommy's home video
• The untimely death of John Candy

Oh yeah, don't forget that he turned Aniken Skywalker into Darth Vader too.

Why is it that we're the only ones that honor the Geneva Convention anyway? It seems to me that when our enemies take our soldiers and civilians captive they don't honor ****. But our lovely liberal politicians and celebrities couldn't care less about that. They just blame Bush. It's always easy to find a scapegoat.

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Originally Posted by nwafan20

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Originally Posted by G-BOAD

then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

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Umm.... the citizens aren't attacking us. Its called terrorists who are fed in there through Iran or homegrown.

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lets see... if an army destroyed your home and killed your family, would you would:
A) pick up an AK-47 and try to fight them
B) wave their flag

tell me, how does the homegrown terrorism start?

PS. I'm NOT a terrorist who hates America, I'm just saying how the terrorism originates by our actions.

[quote=G-BOAD]

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Originally Posted by nwafan20

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Originally Posted by "G-BOAD":66ceb

then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

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Umm.... the citizens aren't attacking us. Its called terrorists who are fed in there through Iran or homegrown.

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lets see... if an army destroyed your home and killed your family, would you would:
A) pick up an AK-47 and try to fight them
B) wave their flag

tell me, how does the homegrown terrorism start?

PS. I'm NOT a terrorist who hates America, I'm just saying how the terrorism originates by our actions.[/quote:66ceb]

Stop drinking the kool aid! We are not blowing up random people's houses. That is total propaganda. Go over there and ask the citizens what they think of America, the majority love us and the majority have a lot of national pride.

not saying the army intentionally targets innocent people, but during a time of war, lots of people die. bombs fall on innocent people's homes, solders mistake civilians for terrorist.

"About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts."
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0, ... 49,00.html


"Nearly 25,000 civilians have died violently in Iraq since the US-led invasion in March 2003, a report says.
The dossier, based on media reports, says US-led forces were responsible for more than a third of the deaths."
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4692589.stm

and so on

I'M sure there are people who do like us.

but you must ask yourself why others don't.

Choose your source, one says 100,000, the other says 25,000. Sounds like discrepancy.

Any number of civilian casualties does not mean that Iraqi people are against us, again, the majority love us there.