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Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, the Kremlin says.
He told officials he had decided to end the campaign after restoring security for Russian citizens and peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
However, Russia has been highly critical of Georgia's leadership, and there were no signs of imminent talks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm
The Gov't of Russia are nothing more then dirty pigs. They clearly attacked civilian targets with deliberate intent…and ppl say we are wrong for our actions around the globe.
General Patton's thinking was right back in 1945...they should have let him roll his tanks through Eastern Europe on his way to Moscow nuking the Russian army along the way... The issues of the last 63 years could have been avoided.
Just some random thoughts --
The Russian Navy is bulking up nearby. Look for them to possibly take a third ethnic province back from Georgia.
In the meantime to make things interesting, the US has no less than five (5) Naval attack groups gathering in the Persian Gulf.
The stronger argument the Russians have apart from references to US "intervention" in Iraq - would really be, why is Kosovo becoming its own state carved out of Serbia?
If the US begins to engage Russia in proxy wars (or Russia engages the US if we prefer), especially if this happens after either Israeli or US air-strikes on Iran...or a blockade of Iran leading to wide spread military confrontations throughout the Middle East and Persian Gulf.... Would that be an opportune time for China to make a move on Taiwan? IF so, I take it Chavez will cut off "his" oil supplies... as Middle Eastern oil grinds down and Russia shuts off or turns down its supplies.
Will the US (without NATO) attempt to engage these nations simultaneously (either pro-actively or reflexively) taking on all comers?
Tom the fact is we don't have the conventional war resources or personal to handle that. There's always the nuclear threat to disuade certain nations from doing certain things. What amazes me you would think this would have driven the price of oil through the roof and it hasn't...yet.
I know :) Thank goodness for small miracles...Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Bird76
That nuclear deterrent is effective so long as it remains just that, but once somebody miscalculates and some "bad" information springs from one or two incidents, I imagine things can get easily out of control. Even in this situation, with so many eyes watching, its shocking to realize half the parties in the field are (by some accounts) confusing Georgian tanks and Russian tanks....
I remember during 911 Putin lost no time ordering the Russian military to "stand down" (or whatever the correct terminology is, I think thats what was reported in the media..) Hate to see some sh*t go down by mistake/error/accident.
Tom
[quote=Tom_Turner]I know :) Thank goodness for small miracles...Quote:
Originally Posted by "T-Bird76":2ba070kq
That nuclear deterrent is effective so long as it remains just that, but once somebody miscalculates and some "bad" information springs from one or two incidents, I imagine things can get easily out of control. Even in this situation, with so many eyes watching, its shocking to realize half the parties in the field are (by some accounts) confusing Georgian tanks and Russian tanks....
I remember during 911 Putin lost no time ordering the Russian military to "stand down" (or whatever the correct terminology is, I think thats what was reported in the media..) Hate to see some sh*t go down by mistake/error/accident.
Tom[/quote:2ba070kq]
Yes I remember that after 9/11 it was reported that Russia ordered all of its deployed units into a non aggressor mode. I'm sure the hours right after 9/11 anyone and everyone could have been a target for our nucs. I'm sure Puntin wanted to make sure Russia wasn't hit.
Come mate..you think Russia's response was right? If they wanted to protect their ppl then they should have respected the boarders of the disputed land and not have crossed into Georgia proper. Georgia is no angel but their response is totally uncalled for. Its no secret Russia wants the current leadership of Georgia out and this was an excuse to do it. However Europe isn't standing for it. The French President should be commended for his quick response. If NATO allowed the Ukraine and Georgia into NATO last year Russia would have thought twice about what they did. Our Gov't back in the 40s should have let Patton's 3rd Army roll into Russia, 50 years of Soviet oppression would have been avoided and over 20 million lives would have been saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by RussK19
I LOVE WERNER KURPJUWEIT
I miss the old days when Bush and "Pooty Poot" were best buds. Or at least George thought they were, I'm sure Vlad had a much different idea.
What remains to be seen now is if this intimidation worked. With the missile deal finalized today, we see Poland is sticking with us. But Georgia doesn't have much choice at this point. And even more importantly...Georgia's America-friendly neighbor to the east, Azerbijan, which borders Russia on the north and Iran on the south and would be a key player in the event we attacked Iran. Will they cut ties with us to prevent a Russian invasion? All this has so many possible motives and possible consequences it's mind boggling.
Very good points Tommy! Funny thing is that the NATO members were concerned about pissing off Russia, for all the good it did:wink:, all the while the United States was pressing to have these former Soviet Bloc receive entry into NATO to prevent Russian aggression.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Bird76
As for Georgia, they got a little tooooo big for their britches & gave Russia an excuse for military actions, what Russia did was wrong, but, wow, did Georgia make a tactical error.
The other thing that's a play here is this was an exuse for Russia to enter a proxy battle with the west, which is also what this is. I only hope that the armed fighting will not bubble up again and that the people who have been uprooted can return to their homes and rebuild.
It's high time Russia enter the community of nations and the 21st century.
Well, Pat Buchanan has an interesting take on this and I can't say I disagree with him much..
I am going to quote liberally here, as I think it's unlikely Pat will mind in this instance..and humanevents come after NYCAv... :D
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053
Some excerpts as follows..
<<American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.
Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.
True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?>>
And Again...
<<Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?>>
And Again...
<<When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?
Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?>>
And again..
<<When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?
American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.
Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.
When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?>>
<<The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.
We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.
Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them. >>
And, finally...
<<How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?
For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost -- in Tbilisi.>>
Now, to me, in recent memory, we've been into Haiti, Grenada, Nicaragua, and Panama. We can split hairs on much of this, and I don't mean to suggest much sympathy for Putin's govt, but at some point in real politics it just might be more advantageous to have Russia as the lousy unreliable "partner" it is than push this confrontation to the brink - In my mind the US is not for long the "last superpower", as China, and (for the next couple of decades at least) Russia, and a Radicalized Islam should not to be considered paper tigers..
Tom
My man crush on Pat Buchanan just got a little stronger. He's dead on as usual. If there was suddenly a "Calle de Putin" in downtown Mexico City the way there's a "George W. Bush Street" in Tblisi, I think we might get a little worried, no?
As for the disproportionate response, a Russian reporter challenged Condi on that point at her press conference yesterday. Mysteriously, the satellite feed cut off before she had a chance to answer (at least it did in Canada where this clip is from, not sure about the rest of the world).
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussK19
RussQuote:
I can't agree with you more Midnight Mike, lets be absolutely honest here Russia claimed that they lost 10 peacekeepers to Georgian troops who had opened fire at them first. (which is absolutely true)
Russia loses roughly 80 people a day to traffic accidents. So was the response to open a full blown attack on Georgia disproportionate??? You bet, but Georgians (at least in the first 3 days) were actively bombing and killing people of South Osettia as well and it's still unclear which side had killed more peaceful citizens. :(
Russia and Russians feel like they are in a NATO cage, so they needed that provocation to show some teeth, and Georgia was dumb enough to hand it to them.
So my take on this is that Russia is like a big bear, might leave u alone if you don't touch it, but if you start pissing it off and annoying it, it will bite. And as we all know now, the outcomes are pretty gruesome.
P.S. The saddest part of this is the fact that majority of Georgians condemn their own Georgian president, because if he was smart and clever enough to not open fire first then you can beat 100% that Russia would never open fire or invade his country, as a result thousands of his own as well as russian people wouldn't get killed, and all of them would just live their peaceful mundane lives the same way they did before 08.08.2008.
It's sad that all of this had happened, especially during the Olympics....
Actually, we agree with each other, we are just using different words :D