Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
By DAVID PORTER | Associated Press Writer
May 10, 2008
NEWARK, N.J. - A new takeoff pattern aimed at easing congestion at Newark Liberty International Airport has confused some pilots and led to several incidents in which planes turned in the wrong direction, according to the union that represents air traffic controllers.
Three of the incidents occurred in the last nine days, according to Ray Adams, vice president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association union at Newark.
Many pilots aren't notified of the specifics of the new pattern until they are on the runway preparing to take off, Adams said. [
Full Article]
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
Nope, when they get cleared for takeoff they're told to either fly a 215 or 239 heading depending on the first fix. I've seen this first hand happen.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
Philly is also using diverging headings. PHL was having the same problems. A quick fix for that IMO would be to advertise it in the ATIS or NACO should put something on the Philly 7, Newark 7, Mariner 2 and SELBY/FISLA 1 charts.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by PHL Approach
Philly is also using diverging headings. PHL was having the same problems. A quick fix for that IMO would be to advertise it in the ATIS or NACO should put something on the Philly 7, Newark 7, Mariner 2 and SELBY/FISLA 1 charts.
That would be too logical, Ed. They have to make it much more complicated for the pilot. :roll:
I agree with everything you suggested.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
FAA has caved...they'll be issuing a NOTAM in June, and publishing the new procedures in July.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
Pilots do what ATC says, period.
1.) ATC issues heading.
2.) Pilot reads it back.
3.) Pilot doesn't comply with step 1.
4.) Pilot copies telephone number.
I don't really see where the problem is. JFK does it all the time, with issuing either the Canarsie, Bridge, or Breezy Point climb (essentially the same thing as a divergent heading), yet the pilots there don't **** it up all the time.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by njgtr82
Nope, when they get cleared for takeoff they're told to either fly a 215 or 239 heading depending on the first fix. I've seen this first hand happen.
215 is fine because its a round number, but its funny to see a 239 heading! That would just about be impossible with a six pack.
Back to the original topic - It happens daily at LGA when they say "American 701 expect 31, heading 360, vectors to WHITE (or something else) maintain 5000. As long as ATC advises the crews which heading they will use, then I dont see a problem. I could be missing something here...
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by Mateo
Pilots do what ATC says, period.
1.) ATC issues heading.
2.) Pilot reads it back.
3.) Pilot doesn't comply with step 1.
4.) Pilot copies telephone number.
I don't really see where the problem is. JFK does it all the time, with issuing either the Canarsie, Bridge, or Breezy Point climb (essentially the same thing as a divergent heading), yet the pilots there don't **** it up all the time.
If you're bugged for 190º as published, and ATC gives you a last minute heading change on departure, it's quite easy to bust the new heading. Pilots should really be more on top of things, but when you're in position, then cleared for an immediate takeoff with traffic on a 2 mile final, it's hard to keep track of heading changes in such a busy phase of flight. Hence, why departure procedures are published so pilots can brief them before they even start taxiing.
I'm not trying to defend the recent pilot deviations off EWR, but merely point out that it is much easier to do than most think.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by AA 777
Back to the original topic - It happens daily at LGA when they say "American 701 expect 31, heading 360, vectors to WHITE (or something else) maintain 5000. As long as ATC advises the crews which heading they will use, then I dont see a problem. I could be missing something here...
you're right, these headings are issued from clearance. when are the EWR pilots getting thier heading? if it's with thier clearance then i think they're entirely at fault for screwing up. especially since they're digital airplanes.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
The problem is that they're being issued the Newark 7 in their clearance and then when they receive their take off clearance at the runway they're being issued the heading. It seems to catch alot of pilots off guard, especially since its a new thing and given at the last second. I will say it is on the atis that dispersal headings are in effect. But these guys will even readback the correct heading and then screw it up. Now if they don't fly it the problem is you don't have 3 miles of seperation because the 15 degrees of diverging courses rule is no longer in effect so it is a pilot deviation. I've seen this happen at least 4 or 5 times already.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by njgtr82
The problem is that they're being issued the Newark 7 in their clearance and then when they receive their take off clearance at the runway they're being issued the heading. It seems to catch alot of pilots off guard, especially since its a new thing and given at the last second. I will say it is on the atis that dispersal headings are in effect. But these guys will even readback the correct heading and then screw it up. Now if they don't fly it the problem is you don't have 3 miles of seperation because the 15 degrees of diverging courses rule is no longer in effect so it is a pilot deviation. I've seen this happen at least 4 or 5 times already.
bill, that to me sounds like the problems begins with the way the pilots are being issued headings. the SID clearly states a heading for each runway, so that heading is going to be programmed into the autopilot. being issued a heading when you're on the roll can be confusing to some especially if it's read out quicky. perhaps the headings should be taken out of the SID and a remark be added that final headings will be issued by the controller when the airplane is ready to depart.
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by cancidas
the SID clearly states a heading for each runway, so that heading is going to be programmed into the autopilot. being issued a heading when you're on the roll can be confusing to some especially if it's read out quicky. perhaps the headings should be taken out of the SID and a remark be added that final headings will be issued by the controller when the airplane is ready to depart.
That's how it's done at PHL. I'm sure EWR is doing it the same way. The Local West controller we be putting together the sequence for 27L and just start saying.
"US Air 740 Heavy, you'll follow the opposite direction CRJ, expect a 245 heading"
"Brickyard 3244, You'll be number 3, your gonna follow the Northwest Airbus westbound Sierra, expect a 268 heading"
etc
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by PHL Approach
That's how it's done at PHL. I'm sure EWR is doing it the same way. The Local West controller we be putting together the sequence for 27L and just start saying.
"US Air 740 Heavy, you'll follow the opposite direction CRJ, expect a 245 heading"
"Brickyard 3244, You'll be number 3, your gonna follow the Northwest Airbus westbound Sierra, expect a 268 heading"
i understand that and it makes perfect sense. but aside from how other facilities do it something at EWR is causing the pilots to deviate from instructions. if diverging headings are going to be used on an every-day situation then they should not include general headings in the SID. that's just my opinion, but i'm only a helicopter pilot.
:)
Re: Controllers: Airspace redesign causing wrong turns at Newark
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Originally Posted by PHL Approach
Quote:
Originally Posted by cancidas
the SID clearly states a heading for each runway, so that heading is going to be programmed into the autopilot. being issued a heading when you're on the roll can be confusing to some especially if it's read out quicky. perhaps the headings should be taken out of the SID and a remark be added that final headings will be issued by the controller when the airplane is ready to depart.
That's how it's done at PHL. I'm sure EWR is doing it the same way. The Local West controller we be putting together the sequence for 27L and just start saying.
"US Air 740 Heavy, you'll follow the opposite direction CRJ, expect a 245 heading"
"Brickyard 3244, You'll be number 3, your gonna follow the Northwest Airbus westbound Sierra, expect a 268 heading"
etc
Not at EWR its given when they get on the runway to depart.
