A lot of what I am sure are stolen Anet photos and perhaps misleaidng information?
Share your thoughts.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A
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A lot of what I am sure are stolen Anet photos and perhaps misleaidng information?
Share your thoughts.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A
Yeah, bunch of stolen Anet photos, and slightly misleading, those are starting first officer 1st year salaries with min. hours and no per Diem. 1st year pay always sucks, I have actually heard it doubling at some airlines come second year!
Yeah, I know there's per diem and OT, too, right? Jsut looks horribly misleading.
There are a lot of great pilots that I've met and flown with. So many great peopel aht I've had the priviledge to raise a beer with afterwards. However, I think it's very unfortunate that there are a measurable amount of pilots that love to complain about their job, talk **** about threatening to strike (but would never) and act as though the company should revolve around them (becuase no one else contirbutes to flights, right?) and as if they are the most abused people in their company. Boo ****ing hoo.
I was reading recently about Southwest swapping pilots with ground crews and how the pilots got to see first hand how difficult their "lowly" job can be. They earn a respect for each other and the fact that flying is a team effort....and a fun one.
Yeah, WN does that for all employees from what I understand.
Yes, especially regional pilots, you get way more than the minimum hours. All the minimum hours does is make it that you can't be paid below those hours, even if you don't work it (which never happens)
The numbers are probably a bit higher now, and most people use regionals as a stepping stone.
For more accurate figures, I looked to this page here, which gives us insight on to how much pilots make. Below is a post which I think best explains the situation:
Quote:
very difficult to 'average' airline pilot pay. Airline pilot pay is something the general public often has a lot of misconceptions about and they think everyone makes a ton of money. The general 'glamorization' of the career leads many people to think that airline pilots make $250-300K+ a year and that they work two weeks or less a month. While there are a select few captains at the major carriers that do, they are by far the minority.
That said:
According to the Air Line Pilots Association, their average major* airline member Captain is 50 years old, with 18 years seniority and makes $182,000 a year. A non-major airline Captain is 41 years old with 10 years of seniority and makes $70,000 a year.
The average ALPA First Officer member at a major airline is 43 years old with 10 years of seniority and makes $121,000 per year, while an ALPA non major First Officer is age 35 with 3 years of service and makes $33,000.
*A major airline is a carrier with more than a billion in sales annually. American, Delta, Northwest, United, Continental, US Airways, Southwest, Alaska (and even several 'regional' carriers) are considered majors by that definition. However, not all major carriers pilots are members of the ALPA union, notably AA & SWA who have their own in house unions.
Factors affecting pilot pay:
~ Time with the company (seniority)
~ Aircraft flown
~ Whether they are a Captain or First Officer (seat)
~ The hours in their monthly schedule
~ The payscale at their specific airline
A pilots pay is figured upon the hourly rate for their seat and their equipment based upon the pay grade for their seniority. Each company also has a set 'minimum guarantee' flight hour pay in their pilot contract. This is generally about 75 hours per month but varies slightly by airline. (A few majors guarantee is only 65!) However, in no case will the pilot earn less than the 'minimum guarantee'. They may fly less than 75 actual flight hours, but they will still be paid for the 75 per their guarantee. If they get a flight schedule that is blocked for more flight hours than the minimum guarantee, they will then get paid for the greater amount of time flown instead, plus per diem. Flight crew make from $1-3 per hour in 'per diem' for every hour they are away from their domicile on a trip to cover expenses. This generally adds a few hundred dollars to their pay check.
A general comparison of starting monthly First Officer pay by airline*:
~ AMERICAN - $2,240
~ CONTINENTAL - $2,500
~ DELTA - $3,640
~ FED EX - $3,700
~ NORTHWEST - $2,574
~ SOUTHWEST - $3,744
~ UNITED - $1,950
~ US AIRWAYS - $1,875
~ UPS - $2,187
*all without per diem, based on minimum monthly guarantee, first year pay in smallest fleet type
Here is a Captain pay comparison* at 12 years of seniority, by the largest type in fleet (best paying):
~ American 777 - $12,352
~ Continental 777 - $14,688
~ Delta 777 - $14,040
~ Fed EX widebody $14,874
~ Northwest 747 - $14,586
~ Southwest 737 - $14,196
~ United 747 - $11,570
~ US Airways A330 $11,520
~ UPS (all a/c) $15,390
(*all without per diem, based on minimum monthly guarantee, 12 pay in largest fleet type)
To find out what the specific base pay is for each major, cargo or charter operator by seat & seniority visit-
http://www.AirlinePilotPay.com
The regionals defineately still do not make enough in alot of cases to get by at anything above bare minimums. Many of my friends at the regionals are bailing out to NetJets and such before upgrade even because of the pay. Right now I am slightly worried myself about Comair as that is the current gameplan once I get my bills and my medical all in order again. Lately I am wondering though about it. I had a job offer by Colgan earlier this year but because of my current eye issue I could not accept it. That and I have had my eye on Comair and PSA. We shall see though. I am willing to fly for less personally. Yesterday the USAirways mainline pilots were outside protesting the contract and pay issue and I was quite tempted to head out there and let them know that if they wanted to really be whiners there are quite a few pilots out there who will gladly take the left or right seat of their jets for 50 a year (me personally). I think it is at a point where it must be a true passion of yours if you become an airline pilot.
Once you "make it" (that is to say make it past the few year or two at a regional) you are generally compensated a liveable wage... But, some things to consider:
- Many pilots spend between $50,000 and $100,000 learning to fly.
- Many pilots use loans to pay for their training, meaning that $50,000 now becomes $55,000 - $60,000 after it is all repaid.
- Most pilots aren't hired right out of college, or after they finish "flight training". In fact, to be competitive at most regionals, you need at least 1,000 hours, many of those twin-engine hours.
- 1,000 seems to take at least two years to accrue, and probably more.
- During those years, most pilots earn hours through instruction; which from what I've heard (and seen at ERAU), does not pay well at all. (Under $25,000 annually)
- Combine that salary with having to pay back loans, and you can very well be living in poverty.
- Once you possibly have the chance of becoming a regional pilot, and start making better money (i.e. after the year or two probation period) you're probably at least 27, and more likely closer to 30. If you're single, it's a not a bad deal, but with a wife and kids, $35,000 a year, while still re-paying loans, and being away from the house an awful lot, is not great at all.
While the video is certainly exaggerated, the road to becoming an airline pilot is certainly not easy, nor is it cheap or glamorous. A lot of my IPs last summer were subcontrated through ERAU to teach us how to fly and gaining hours in process, and some of them said if they had to do it all over again, they wouldn't.
Like Hiss said, you really need the passion, and the wallet, to maybe one day make it to an airline.
Do the ground crews get to fly the planes in the swap?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil D.
Back a hundred years ago, when I got out of the Air Force, flying jobs were few and far between. Starting salaries, even at the majors, weren't anything to write home about. A job as a flight engineer with a major would have meant at least a 25% pay cut from my AF salary, and if I had ended up with a regional, flying twin-props, it would have been more like a 40-50% cut. After a few years with a major, the salary ramped up, but for someone starting out, especially at a regional, it can be tough to live the glamorous life of a pilot when you qualify for food stamps.
Yes, stolen airliners.net photos, shame on him, but none the less a VERY accurate video and not misleading at all. At the regionals, first year pay sucks, second year pay sucks, third year pay sucks, etc., etc. At the regionals, pay does not double the second year. Even if you upgrade to Captain, so what, the pay still sucks. PER DIEM and OT, PLEASE! Per Diem amounts to about an extra $400/mo and who wants to fly overtime when you are already flying 80-100 hours a month, of which you just spent 350 hours away from home to get that 80-100 hours of flying time. Anyone ever hear of duty rigs? It is really a crime considering a lot of regionals are flying some pretty heavy equipment nowadays, EMB-175, CRJ-700/900, Dash 8-Q400's. If you look at any of the payscales, the pay does not get much better, you can be making $40,000 by around the 5 year mark, oh boy! $40k a year for someone that has an ATP license(look up the requirements to get this, it is a long road), a college degree and now years of experience, A CRIME. That is one of the main reasons I stay put in the corporate flying world until a major airline picks me up is because of pay. I do have an ATP, several type ratings and a college degree and feel I am worth more than that. I make a lot more flying an Astra SPX/G100(we have a new G450 coming this year) than a CRJ-700 Captain makes and stay in nice hotels, eat great meals, and have time off. Even the pay at the majors is not what it used to be. It would take me 4-5 years to get back at the pay point I am at now, but I would do it, you can't not chase the dream of flying a 777, 767, or 747. The root of the problem has been gluttony and greed which has come crashing in around everyone and the pay scales have fallen. It is going to take many years for the pay to come back up and for the glamour to return, if it ever does.Quote:
Originally Posted by nwafan20
It does take a lot to become a pilot, and many years and lots of money and time. To be paid less than a waiter makes in many instances is just a shame, considering the amount of responsibility and accountability that is required. The problem is that people take flying to nonchalant now. This is good and bad, good because the safety level has become very high, bad because people have to remember this is still serious shXX and one wrong move or decision can result in death and serious loss. I think people do not value pilots professionally the way they used to because flying has become so routine and safe. But why has it become routine and safe? Just my two cents and my two minutes on the soapbox. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lear45
Cheers and kudos to you! Are you flying PART 135?
That's great when you are 21 and single, but how about when you are married, maybe a couple of kids, trying to pay your bills on that?Quote:
Originally Posted by hiss srq
Than it is time to look elsewhere. Unfortuneately in this industry it is one or the other nowadays. That is the way it goes. You would be suprised though in places out of NY what you could do with two incomes in a household when you fly for a regional airline depending on where you live. Obviously in NY or Florida even it is hard but if you commute from the boondocks you can have a nice house car and all of that on about 60 a year between two people.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose135
Thanks. Part 91, flying for a single owner. You should care about pay though. It is something that you have worked hard for and acquired a very unique skill. I have as much passion for this as anyone, but at some point you have to draw the line in the sand.